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A Brief Look at Why All the Gedolei Hador Always So Strongly Opposed Giyus Banot

28/8/2019

8 Comments

 
The main reason given by Gedolei Hador worldwide for their strenuous opposition to giyus banot (recruiting girls into the army) has to do with arayot — illicit & licentious behavior.

In addition to the fact that there is no practical reason for women to serve in battle, their participation in non-physical aspects of the military is of questionable worth.

(Just as one example: The male-female dynamics that often accompany mixed offices are always a problem in regular work-settings, but can lead to disaster within a military setting, with so much security and lives at stake.)

It has been pointed out many times that the only other country to enforce the female draft is North Korea.

Israel's mandatory draft of girls is a big chilul Hashem. Furthermore, girls who do teshuvah sometime between high school and IDF service aren't always considered religious and therefore aren't always exempt from this ridiculous draft of teenage girls — much to the distress of these girls.

Even fully charedi Beit Yaakov girls who aren't yet registered for seminary following high school graduation have been caught in the draft.

But let's get back to arayot.

Army-Training for WHAT?!

It's always a challenge to know exactly how much to say in a public forum that can be read (and misunderstood) by absolutely anyone.

So I won't say everything, but I will say this:

When I was already frum and living in Eretz Yisrael, I got to know a young woman who was just starting out in Torah & mitzvot. She'd been living in Israeli society for a while and was more familiar with regular Israeli society.

I was chewing over the idea of giyus banot with her, saying that while I agreed that women are not effective in battle, I honestly did not understand why girls couldn't serve in non-combat areas of the IDF. (I no longer think like this.)

To my surprise (after all, she wasn't so frum at that point), she wrinkled her nose and curled her upper lip at the idea.

"The army is really a bad influence on girls," she said with distaste. "Girls really shouldn't be there."

I was surprised at the chill in her attitude toward the idea. Secular (or even some modernish religious people) are not generally so opposed to female enlistment.

"Why?" I asked. "What's wrong with non-combat positions for girls?"

She looked like she was deliberating what to say. "Well," she finally said. "I'll give you just one example that happened with 2 friends of mine."

Her 2 girl friends went through the standard (approximately 2 years) of IDF service. Upon being discharged, these same 2 girls decided to go and become pritzot in a elite beis znus in Japan that caters to wealthy clientele.

I was shocked.

"And you think that their army service had something to do with that?" I said.

Still looking like she had a bad smell in her nose, she said, "Yeah."

But she didn't want to go into anymore detail about what had happened with these 2 girls during their army service.

Now, I know that 2 don't prove a rule and that most girls do not completely lose their dignity in that way in the army. But the fact that there is something in the IDF that can lead to this is a problem.

In this situation, my friend was convinced that the girls' decision to enter into such a deplorable lifestyle was a direct result of their IDF service. Meaning, they'd shown no inclination toward that before.

And certainly, you don't hear that happening as a result of entering into other institutions.

Some Very Real (& Very Tragic) Results of Female Enlistment in the IDF

Sadly, another friend of mine went with her formerly secular Israeli husband to an Israeli hospital for a D&C after a miscarriage.

While she was there, she noticed that the waiting room was full of very young women - like on either side of 20.

My friend's heart went out to them. She was also really shocked. How is it that so many girls who are so young are having miscarriages, and then needing a D&C? "I couldn't believe all these young girls were having miscarriages!" she said to me. "I just felt like, 'Oh, these poor girls!' "

When she confided her concerns to her husband (who'd served in the IDF), he said, "What are you thinking? How can you be so naive? These girls are here for abortions. They're chayalot and the army pays for their abortions."

In 2014, 1000 chayalot underwent abortions.

In 2015, it was 839 (730 of which were "taken care of" by the IDF).

This is obviously appalling on so many levels, it's hard to know where to begin.

The physical & emotional trauma & aftereffects of abortion have been extensively documented (and repressed by pro-abortion groups). That these young women are being put through this is such an unconcerned manner is appalling.

Not to mention the circumstances that led up to this, especially since the methods to avoid pregnancy are so acceptable in Israeli society (and free to any IDF soldier) and there is still the idea to marry if a couple discovers a pregnancy.

Another reason for this situation is the atmosphere in the army. It's sort of like an American college dorm in its hefkerut between males & females, some areas worse than others. 

This doesn't even begin to touch on the very real issues of harassment & coercion & seduction & grooming that not only occur, but are greatly exacerbated by the enforced obedience endemic to any army. 

And finally, yet most importantly, all of the above (whether by consent or coercion) are halachically forbidden — not that the powers-that-be care.

Countering the Propaganda

Also, from what I see, the girls themselves are the least to blame.

There's so much propaganda & social pressure regarding female enlistment, it's very hard for a teenage girl to resist the bombardment.

The propaganda is also done in such a skilled and alluring way.

I've even seen "charedi" media feature photos of chayalot who've completed their completely meaningless and gross tank service.

Charedi girls going off the derech even express interest in enlisting.

It's promoted in such a way that's hard to resist.

Furthermore, not all girls lose their tsniut in the army, but the individual cases don't justify the general problem.

​And it CERTAINLY does not counter the very reason WHY the IDF insists on a mandatory draft for teenage girls.

(And no, it's not because girls are better at passive observation of monitors. That claim is part of the propaganda machine.)

​Here's what Rav Avigdor Miller said about giyus banot, quoting a book by an army general he doesn't name (but can probably be double-checked by seeing which Israeli generals wrote books in the 70s):
Now we want to save העם היושב בציון, we want to help them out. We want to stop the wars; and therefore if we’re going to fight against the adverse influences there; if we’re going to exert pressure on the government that they have to remedy these evils, maybe we can have a hand in protecting the Jews in Eretz Yisroel...We want them to stop drafting girls in the army.

Because girls in the army means only one thing. Like that Israeli general who wrote a book about the Israeli army. We can trust what he tells us. And he states openly that for most girls,  the induction into the army is their first experience in znus.

For most Israeli girls the army is a beis zonos. So now you have an institution, the Israeli army, which is one big house of prostitution and the girls are forced into it. Now that’s not my statement. It’s a statement by a general who wrote a history of the Israel Defense Forces and he makes that statement openly. He doesn’t make it in a clandestine secret way that you have to read between the lines.

​He says it openly. They’re not ashamed.

TAPE # 204 (February 1978)
How to Protect the Jews of Eretz Yisroel

For a post on how deeply the propaganda can affect young women, please see:
​
​The Aspect of Israeli Mentality You Need to Know in Order to Understand the Issues
​
Then please scroll down to Story #3: Armored Corps Avoidance Anxiety Disorder (ACAAD)

And also this related new post:
The Politically Incorrect Truth: Females Need Protection to Avoid Harm; And in Situations of Harm, Many Find It Hard to Act in the Absence of 3 Crucial Factors (Alternative Title: Yet More Reasons Why the Mandatory Draft of Girls is a Very Bad Idea)
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8 Comments
bracha
28/8/2019 17:52:24

Right on! But, it is so blatantly clear and common sense that it should not only be the righteous Rabbis who understand this, but common sense people instictively know this. What this shows me is that there is something radically wrong with the mindset of humanity in these crazy days. Have heard many so-called average normal thinking people (even the religious ones) who don't seem to understand what is crystal clear. The world is now upside down!

Reply
Myrtle Rising
28/8/2019 23:19:56

Hi, Bracha,

Needless to say, you're completely correct that this should be common sense, as it indeed used to be.

Unfortunately, the carefully manipulated scare-mongering (of the "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" variety) has managed to confuse people.

I used to be swept up in it myself until Hashem gradually took me out of it, yishtabach Shemo.

It's truly an upside-down world.

Thanks for your comment, Bracha.

Reply
Mr. Cohen link
28/8/2019 21:57:10

First the Charedim refuse to join the Army of Israel, which creates a manpower shortage.

Then when the Army of Israel attempts to compensate for that manpower shortage by drafting girls, the Charedim complain that the Army of Israel should not be drafting girls.

Most Charedim seem to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that Israel is surrounded by an almost-endless sea of enemies; Muslim enemies that outnumber Jews by more than 1,000-to-1; Muslim enemies who believe with all their hearts that the greatest accomplishment that they can possible to achieve is to commit 100% genocide against tiny Israel, by killing, murdering, destroying and assassinating: every Jewish man, every Jewish woman, every Jewish teenager, every Jewish child and every Jewish baby in the entire land of Israel – hopeful to be followed by killing all Jews who live outside the land of Israel

Most Charedim seem to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that the Army of Israel is the *** ONLY *** thing that prevents another Holocaust, this one in the Land of Israel.
They ignore the fact that our Torah prohibits relying on miracles.

If Charedim really care about avoiding Chillul HaShem, then they should:

[1] change their numerous corrupt business practices

[2] obey the secular laws and regulations

[3] treat everyone with respect, including Gentiles

[4] stop the minhag of slaughtering chickens Erev Yom Kippur

[5] stop the minhag of not bathing during the “Nine Days’.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
29/8/2019 02:20:59

Hi, Mr. Cohen.

First of all, it must be admitted I was in 2 minds about approving your comment.

I imagine you mean well, but it contains negative blanket statements about an entire group of Jews who are shomrei Torah & mitzvot.

And while it may not take much time to post a list of unsubstantiated statements (even if they were true, they should still be substantiated), it takes considerably more time & effort to answer them and give proper sources.

On the other hand, I'm aware that the assumptions expressed within are shared by many people and propagated by many newspapers & blogs.

So maybe those of us who know the facts have a responsibility to set the record straight.

And maybe I am wrong to approve the comment, but here goes the reply:

"First the Charedim refuse to join the Army of Israel, which creates a manpower shortage."

False.

There is no manpower shortage in the IDF.

Please see here for a factual refutation to this claim (a claim invented by anti-Torah extremists, primarily on the Left):

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/263981

This post contains anecdotal evidence:
http://www.myrtlerising.com/blog/sharing-what-burden-exactly-the-unspoken-elephant-in-the-room

Interestingly, people so concerned about the "lack of IDF manpower" myth rarely complain about all the secular elites dodging the draft nor do they demand that all the guys prancing & singing in the IDF entertainment troupes get switched into bona fide military roles.
_______________

"Then when the Army of Israel attempts to compensate for that manpower shortage by drafting girls, the Charedim complain that the Army of Israel should not be drafting girls."

Again, this is false.

The draft of girls is in no way connected to any lack of MANpower in the IDF. Please see above.
__________________

"Most Charedim seem to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that Israel is surrounded by an almost-endless sea of enemies; Muslim enemies that outnumber Jews by more than 1,000-to-1;"

Where do you get this statistic about "most Charedim"? That implies more than 50%. Where is it from?

Anyway, we also suffer terror. We can also read maps. We read the news. The Charedi media constantly reminds us about Muslim terror and Muslim countries. So how can we possibly be ignorant about this?

Also, do Muslims really outnumber Jews 1000-1? Maybe it's 10,000-1? Do you have sources for that ratio?

I suppose I could figure it out myself, but I dislike math.
__________________

"Muslim enemies who believe with all their hearts that the greatest accomplishment that they can possible to achieve is to commit 100% genocide against tiny Israel, by killing, murdering, destroying and assassinating: every Jewish man, every Jewish woman, every Jewish teenager, every Jewish child and every Jewish baby in the entire land of Israel – hopeful to be followed by killing all Jews who live outside the land of Israel"

First of all, not all Muslims feel this way. At 1.8 billion, Muslims comprise around 24% of the world population. A handful of Muslims have even saved Jewish lives in certain situations.

Or did you mean "just" the Muslims surrounding Israel? It's not clear.

Regardless, the problem is that hardly any Muslims ever stand up to the Muslims who do feel the way you described, rendering moot any Muslims with warm, fuzzy feelings.

So I agree with you that Muslim Jew-hatred (even if it's "just" a minority, which, given the numbers, is still a massive amount) is a problem.

Anyway, even though we disagree on several points, it's refreshing to see a Jew who cares. Many, sadly, do not.
______________

"Most Charedim seem to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that the Army of Israel is the *** ONLY *** thing that prevents another Holocaust, this one in the Land of Israel."

"Most Charedim" - again, where is this statistic from?

Logically speaking, I cannot accept this idea that the IDF is the only thing that prevents another Holocaust. Maybe if you said the nuclear station in Dimona (but only maybe), but not the IDF.

The IDF lacks the sheer numbers, land mass, equipment, and weaponry to hold back the combined forces of the Middle East.

If you look at the full IDF capabilities compared to the full military capabilities of our neighbors, you'll see we're not much more than a blip. (Except for nuclear capabilities, of course. But who really wants to go there?)

I would say that Hashem is holding back the bloodthirsty masses, but the IDF (the sincere servicemen, anyway) is doing its hishtadlut. (Although some of the high-ranking officers are certainly not.)

Hodu L'Hashem ki tov, ki l'olam chasdo.
_________________

"They ignore the fact that our Torah prohibits relying on miracles."

First of all, your phrasing implies that 100% of charedim ignore this. Again, where is this statistic from?

Furthermore, the IDF has been relying on miracles since its inception, whether it realizes it or not. All of Israel's wars have been won by miracles, as

Reply
Myrtle Rising (continuation of previous comment, which got cut off)
29/8/2019 02:26:57

...as has been copiously documented.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122435

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/17-miraculous-israeli-military-victories

Secondly, charedim do not "rely" on miracles. We call the police, the fire department, the ambulance, and so forth when necessary. We look both ways when crossing the street, etc.

On the other hand, living in Eretz Yisrael seems to consist of living on miracles, whether it's making it financially, dealing with the bureaucracy, or surviving attacks.

So it's kind of a dance between knowing you can't rely on miracles, yet being forced to rely on them anyway.

That's my experience, anyway.
________________________

"If Charedim really care about avoiding Chillul HaShem, then they should:..."

I agree that any charedi - any Jew, really (we're all obligated) - should care about chilul Hashem (it's halacha) and be scrupulous about the first 3 items, which are halachic obligations.

(Unless, of course, the secular laws & regulations violate Torah, as is starting to happen in the USA & the UK.)

Your inference that charedim do not care about chilul Hashem and that specifically charedim do not follow your list (the first 3 tips, anyway) is belied by charedi media and shiurim and the comment sections of such articles in the charedi media & blogs, which frequently warn its audience to maintain halachic integrity. Not to mention, the Gedolei Hador who also warn about the first 3.

And of course, all the individual charedim who strive to live with integrity and kiddush Hashem.
________________

"[4] stop the minhag of slaughtering chickens Erev Yom Kippur"

Why shouldn't Jews slaughter chickens on Erev Yom Kippur? After all, we're not allowed to eat them any other way.

Just kidding.

I believe you mean the minhag of kapparot? If so, my family uses money, never chickens. Many charedim do not use chickens. Again, this is a blanket generalization that isn't true for everyone. Also, whatever is used for kapparot goes to the poor. This is all assuming you mean kapparot.
________________________

"[5] stop the minhag of not bathing during the “Nine Days’."

Is this part of the old "smelly charedi" stereotype? Regardless, there are different minhagim about the 9 Days, minhagim carefully studied and selected by Sages much greater than you or me.

Also, there are Sephardi charedim for whom this doesn't usually apply, due to a different minhag about shavua sheh chal bo, with which I'm sure you're familiar.
________________________


And just to be aboveboard about things:

I'm not sure about allowing this conversation to continue. Again, I think you're genuinely concerned about the well-being of your fellow Jews, but the unsubstantiated blanket generalizations & the false statements are problematic (even though I realize you weren't intentionally misleading, but sincerely believed they were true).

That's it, I guess.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
29/8/2019 03:27:37

Oops, after I posted my reply, I realized that I didn’t fully uphold my own stated standard of substantiation.

So here are some numbers accompanied by sources to show that Israel is completely outmanned & outarmed.

In other words, we clearly need acts of God just to survive.

(I wasn’t sure if I should include Pakistan & other such countries, so I didn’t. Also, does Russia figure in here behind the scenes? Not sure.)

https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=israel#overview

Total military personnel:
Egypt: 920,000
Iran: 873,000
Iraq: 165,000
Syria: 142,000
Jordan: 100,000
Lebanon: 75,000
(Combined, this comes to 1,447,330 military personnel)

Israel: 615,000
________________

https://www.globalfirepower.com/aircraft-total.asp

Total aircraft strength of:
Egypt: 1092
Iran: 509
Syria: 457
Iraq: 327
Jordan: 290
Lebanon: 63

Israel: 595
______________

Self-propelled artillery (including conventional & chemical/nuclear-tipped warheads):

https://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-self-propelled-guns-total.asp

Egypt: 1000
Iran: 570
Syria: 500
Jordan: 461
Iraq: 44
Lebanon: 12

Israel: 650
__________

Please note that Israel's total fit-for-service manpower is 3,027,826, which is 35% of the country.

So in total potential regarding manpower alone (which isn't as important in modern warfare as artillery), Israel's MAXIMUM POTENTIAL is only two-thirds more than the combined total of active military personnel of the above countries.

But the other countries could also recruit their total fit-for-service manpower if necessary.

Remember, as far as fit-for-military members of the population, Israel only hovers above 3 million.

Syria alone could amass over 10 million (which would be over half their population, but still).

https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=syria#manpower

Egypt's total fit-for-service manpower is 36,075,104. (Similar to Israel, this is 36% of the population.)

Jordan's is 2,864,768. (27.4% of their population)

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=egypt&country2=jordan&Submit=COMPARE

__________________

Pretty chilling numbers. Sure makes me glad I’m not an atheist.

Ein od milvado.

Reply
bracha
29/8/2019 17:46:41

As soon as I started t o read Mr. Cohen's comment, I knew I had to respond. In a few words, the IDF itself has admitted that they have enough manpower. Today's army (all tech) is not the army of 15-20 years ago when even before then they had most of the big wars and yet did not make a tzimis of chareidim being drafted because they abided by the then status quo. Everything changed after the evil Oslo accords. There is an agenda of deJudaizing the Jews everywhere but especially in EY. It is so obvious that one doesn't have to be a genius to see it. The sick irony of drafting religious or any girl into the army by, any peoples in the world, is that of all nations, it is the Jewish army committing this sin against the women of Israel and G-D, by forcing them to be drafted. There are about only 3 other countries which do so (democracies?) and Israel is also part of this is a chilul H', r'l. These chareidim (many of whom are living in EY for at least two centuries, long before the 'zionists' came and they kept their minhagim the same way they did in the old ciountry, but made aliya for the real right reasons, yishuv HaAretz! Now the Erev Rav have the chutzpa to harrass the real Jews because this is an int'l push for Torah to disappear, c'v, (which is impossible), so they can set up their new religion, c'v, in the heart of our holy Yerushalayim. This is already an open secret.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
29/8/2019 18:14:47

Love your Toradik passion, Bracha.

And thanks so much for mentioning the fact of religious aliyah solidly preceding political aliyah - way before the term Zionism ever existed.

I grew up being told the lie of the opposite, and it's important to keeping saying the truth.

Thanks very much, Bracha.

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