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Is This Really Tinok Sheh Nishba?

12/11/2018

13 Comments

 
UPDATE (as of 15/11/18): Here are extra tidbits on the topic:
​
Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi 
Parashat Toldot-includes current events
(from 00:28:15 to 00:32:28)

Rav Avigdor Miller on the Poor Apikores

​As many already know, tinok sheh nishba is a Jew wholly under the influence of non-Jews since the childhood.

​This Jew grows up “captive” (literally or figuratively) in a completely non-Jewish environment with no chance of learning about Judaism or fulfilling mitzvot.

Their lack of mitzvah observance grants them a status of “innocent” in Shamayim.
 
And understandably so.
 
Like many other frum Jews, I was taught that all non-religious Jews (including many formerly religious Jews) fall into the category of tinok sheh nishba.

In other words, they aren’t accountable for their transgressions because it’s not at all their fault. And as to why they don’t come back to the fold—or why they don’t even consider authentic Torah Judaism an option—well, that’s all part of the tinok sheh nishba dynamic.

(And granted, there is also tremendous anti-Torah propaganda in society today.)
 
But I started having experiences that made me question this oh-so comfortable outlook.
 
Tinok sheh nishba has more to do with a person being held accountable in the World of Truth.
 
And that’s where things get dicey.
 
Just because I want to be generous-minded doesn’t mean that my generosity holds any water in the Heavenly Beit Din.
 
Having said that, all my learning has shown me that I’m still more accountable for my sins than they are for theirs.

I’ve committed myself to Torah. I’ve read the mussar books.

Believe me, I have what to answer for!
 
But just like I need to be honest about myself and my own accountability, I always need to be honest about the terms and ideas presented in halacha and Chazal.

Circumstances showed me that the label of tinok sheh nishba isn't so simple as to mindlessly apply to every single non-frum Jew...

An Authentic Tinok Sheh Nishba

​Here’s a modern-day example of a genuine tinok sheh nishba:

My chassidish friend had a coworker who, upon finding out my friend was Jewish, responded, “Oh, you’re Jewish? You know, some of my relatives are also Jewish.”

“Like who?” said my friend.

“Like my mother.”

Oho!

Turns out that this person’s Jewish mother died when he was very young and his non-Jewish father married a non-Jewish woman.

Understandably, this unwitting Jewish child felt his non-Jewish stepmother as a real mother. To compound things, their area hosted very few Jews and certainly no religious Jews.
 
I think we can all agree this person fits the classic definition of a tinok sheh nishba.
 
(And just for knowing, my chassidish friend invited him to her Seder that year, where she and her husband introduced him to Judaism.)
 
But let’s go on to people considered tinok sheh nishba, and yet...

Exhibit #1: Just Breeze On By

​While on a visit to America, I stopped off in New York where my aunt hosted me. Because she and my uncle don’t keep one whit of halacha, she generously stopped by a fully kosher restaurant to pick up some food for me.
 
All the guys working there were young energetic frum guys. They were bouncing around and having a great time. They related to my aunt and I with good humor and friendliness, making us feel like we were part of their gang.
 
With my aunt standing right there, I explained as inoffensively and nicely as I could that I needed the food wrapped in a way that it could go into a non-kosher oven. My aunt was feeling so comfortable that she intervened to explain that her home wasn’t kosher, but she wanted to be able to warm up food for me.

(I think she was also testing them to see how they'd respond to her open declaration of kefirah.)
 
The guys didn’t break their jolly stride.

They pulled off enormous swathes of tin foil and started wrapping my food with gusto.
 
The frum guys were so good-natured and understanding, I felt truly grateful toward them. My aunt was smiling the whole time. Even after we left, she continued smiling for the next couple of blocks.
 
It was a big kiddush Hashem (and thank you very much to all of you frummies who treat your customers with such grace and understanding wherever you are—kol hakavod on the wonderful kiddush Hashem).
 
This aunt has also met other frum Jews and they have also treated her with graciousness and open arms.

Yet she continues to sporadically attend their Reform congregation and boasts of activities like when they organized a choir to raise money for iffy environmental causes.
 
Seeing as she lived her whole life between Brooklyn and Long Island (not exactly frum-free areas) and seeing as she has encountered very nice frum Jews who even spontaneously invited her and my uncle to their home for Shabbat, does she truly fall into the category of tinok sheh nishba?

Exhibit #2: My Ego Doesn't Let Me

​One of my Jewish relatives is a man of great old-fashioned integrity.

His love and passion for Judaism is contagious and his favorite part of the Torah is Sefer Iyov (Book of Job). The son of very assimilated parents, he also grew up in Brooklyn and had a lot of interaction with tepid Orthodoxy.

He never would’ve married a non-Jew, but the Conservative-which-is-actually-radically-Liberal movement of Jews told him that their “conversions” are completely kosher (even though their “converts” needn’t keep the basic 10 Commandments, let alone other vital mitzvot, like taharat mishpacha, etc.).

​So he married his non-Jewish girlfriend who agreed to “convert”—which means he was living with a non-Jewish woman for most of his life and none of his children are actually Jewish.
 
In their later years, both he and his non-Jewish wife repeatedly experienced many positive interactions with fully Orthodox Jews, including Chabad shlichim.
 
During a visit, I once said to him, “I don’t mean this offensively at all and I hope you’ll take this in the spirit I mean it in…but I can’t help thinking that you would have made a really amazing and wonderful Orthodox Jew. And I mean that in the nicest, most respectful way possible.”

He quickly reassured me that he knew I meant that as a compliment and that he definitely took it that way—and that he was even honored that I thought so highly of him.

Then he mulled over his response.

Finally, he said, “I really thank you for that praise. And yeah, I think I could’ve been Orthodox, but…” He sighed and shook his head. “I’m just not knowledgeable enough to really fit in with the other Orthodox guys.”

“You could catch up!” I blurted out. After all, this guy had a degree in engineering from an Ivy League college. And he also knew Hebrew.

He shook his head. “No,” he said. “I’d rather be a knowledgeable Conservative Jew than an ignorant Orthodox Jew.”

​Aack!
 
I couldn’t believe he actually said it outright. (Also, I’d no idea he felt this way.) He was basically saying that becoming frum wouldn’t be comfortable for his ego. He was choosing his religious system based on his ego, of all things.
 
How’s that going to hold any water in Shamayim?
 
And is that tinok sheh nishba?

Exhibit #3: Just If You Hold a Gun to My Head

​I have a friend who definitely looks like tinok sheh nishba.
 
But is she?
 
The product of a completely assimilated Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father, she attended Hebrew school held at the JCC on Wednesday nights throughout her high school years. It featured an eclectic mix of teachers, including some frum teachers. One of her favorite classes was Mishna taught by an Orthodox rabbi. Her other favorite class was taught by a Chabad rabbi. (His classes were always packed—much more than anyone else’s, including any of the non-Orthodox teachers.)
 
When I became frum, I hosted her as a single woman. Once, we even spent Shabbos by a frum family in Far Rockaway. She also spent Shabbos with me and my husband in Eretz Yisrael in a charedi neighborhood with no cars or radios on Shabbat, the whole Shabbat atmosphere, etc.
 
As far as I know, not only has she met frum people, but all of her interactions with frum people have been extremely positive.
 
When I once mentioned how I always thought she was the smart one in our relationship, she looked uncomfortable and said that she always thought I was the smart one.

Flabbergasted, I pointed out that she was scoring straight top marks in honors calculus in 12th grade while I took dumb-people algebra (where they spread the algebra over 2 years rather than one) and even then, I needed to go to summer school to make up for flunking it. (Admittedly, failing beginners Algebra had more to do with lack of effort than lack of intelligence, but still.)
 
“Yeah,” she said, “but that’s not really intelligence. On the other hand, you think about things.”
 
“So do you,” I said, recalling many of our past conversations.
 
She shook her head. “No. Maybe I’ll listen to a discussion of stuff and even participate. But just on my own? I don’t really think about things. I mean, you actually pondered whether God exists and you researched it.”
 
“So did you,” I said. “I mean, you were an atheist at one point, then you decided you kind of believe in God now…”
 
“No," she said. "Atheism was just a stage because I was really into Ayn Rand at the time. But I didn’t really THINK about it.”
 
Then at one point, she said, “If someone would hold a gun to my head and say, ‘Choose any religion in the world—but you MUST choose one’—I’d choose Orthodox Judaism.”
 
“Really?” I said. “Not Reform?”
 
“No,” she said. “The only religion I’d want is specifically Orthodox Judaism.”
 
She’s married to a non-Jew and keeps absolutely nothing of Judaism. Not Yom Kippur, not Chanukah, nothing. (If she’s invited by other assimilated Jews to attend a Seder—however they do it—she’ll go, but she doesn’t do it on her own.)
 
Is she a tinok sheh nishba?
 
And are her reasons for not doing teshuvah going to hold water in the World of Truth?

Honesty & Accuracy

​I’m not saying all this to condemn people. And I’ve davened for the above people to do teshuvah. (Although the male relative passed away a couple of years ago without ever doing teshuvah, so much for that.) And for about 20 years, I've sent them appealing Aish HaTorah videos for nearly every chag. (This is a modern twist on Rav Avigdor Miller's suggestion to send them a paid subscription to a frum newspaper.)
 
And like I wrote above, Hashem holds me more accountable than He holds them.
 
I’m just asking about as far as the definition goes—in all honesty—are the above people really tinok sheh nishba?
 
And will their excuses (ego, an unwillingness to really think about things, etc.) be accepted in the Heavenly Beit Din when the time comes?
 
And are their reasons being accepted now?
 
No offense intended, just being honest and above-board about the whole issue because people like to throw the term around (as I myself used to) and now I question whether it's correct to do so.

P.S. In contrast, I think there’s more of a case of tinok sheh nishba to be made for FFB youth who grew up with a dysfunctional family and a dysfunctional school because they experienced a misrepresentation of Torah, which is sort of like never experiencing Torah.

However, many of these same youth also have at least one parent and people in their community who bend over backwards to grant them unconditional acceptance, in addition to numerous organizations, volunteers, and schools that cater to them.

​Rabbi Wallerstein has spoken about his own experience of deciding between rejecting Torah based on dysfunctional experiences or embracing Torah & becoming a powerfully effective force for good in the Torah world.
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13 Comments
elisheva
12/11/2018 20:46:02

B"D I am chozer betshuva and I consider the fact of making tshuva to be a huge gift from Hashem. With respect to the many Jews who are not Torah observant, I do not consider it my job to be judging who is or is not tinok she'nishba. I'll leave that up to Hashem.

And btw if a Jew is a big sinner but believes in the truth of the Torah, we desecrate shabbat for him.

Reply
MyrtleRising
15/11/2018 00:57:29

Hi, Elisheva,

I don't know whether you're still reading this thread, but I realized that I didn't like how I responded to you from the outset, and I think it led to a whole exchange that I didn't intend and never wanted this blog to be.

So I deleted the thread, but am allowing your initial comment to remain as is with no response from my end.

We both have our own opinions about the post and the topic, and that's that.

Thank you.

Reply
elisheva
15/11/2018 18:08:29

That's fine, no hard feelings. I only hope that you read the link that I sent you because it explained the issue really well, nuanced and in detail with the positions of the main poskim.

Since then, I read this on Rav Brody's blog:
"My great teachers Rabbi Noach Weinberg zatza'l and Rabbi Yitzchak Berkowitz shlit'a, ruled in accordance with a detailed clear ruling by Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach osb"m based on the Rambam that in today's day and age, all those far away from observant Judaism have the status of "Babies in captivity" (tinokos shenishbu) and they are deemed part of the fold - one must love them, may not speak badly about them and must do everything to save their lives."

Whatever you think of anyone, remember that we need all four sons to be at the seder, and arbaat haminim to be kosher, including those without Torah or good deeds, and I'm sure that friend no. 3 has good deeds, all of yisrael is full of mitzvot like a pomegranate, otherwise you wouldn't be friends with her. It is not surprising she is intermarried, as she is simply modelling what she grew up with. And as a child of intermarriage, regardless of her age, she probably has an internal subconscious struggle over which of her parents she is choosing, when choosing a religious path.


Myrtle Rising
15/11/2018 23:26:05

Thank you, Elisheva.

Myrtle Rising
15/11/2018 23:48:00

P.S.

If anyone else is reading this, the source Elisheva quotes is from here in the comment section:
https://www.lazerbrody.net/lazer_beams/2018/11/pittsburgh-wild-fires-and-hamas-rockets.html#comments

Also, it's very worthwhile reading the obviously sincere and heartfelt comments from someone named Devorah on that thread.

While I did not grow up as assimilated as she did, I grew up in the movement that calls itself "Conservative Judaism" and I'm quite familiar with what's really going behind the scenes on in that community, and I could really identify with Devorah's anguish as expressed in her comments.

(And yes, there are some very nice people in that movement, but there are a LOT of problems too...)

But because I suffered so much from them, both practically and on the neshamah level, I don't want to say much more than that because I get too emotional about it.

Suffice to say, growing up very with a family very involved in that movement is like undergoing constant neshamah-violation while everyone involved is all self-congratulatory and smiley about it -- and you don't really know why you feel so bad because everyone is acting like you should be feeling so good & fortunate.

Yet the neshamah knows.

But that's all I want to say about it for now because it's a very emotional topic for me.

bracha
13/11/2018 16:57:42

Hi: Just read the post and comments here. I agree with Elisheva. Also, we have to realize we really don't know the ways of H'. But, anyone who does not accept the Divinity of the Torah means he/she does not have emunah nor yirat Shamayim and cannot be considered as a baal teshuvah. Hakol havel chutz m'yirat Shamayim (Shlomo HaMelech).

Reply
Myrtle Rising
13/11/2018 18:45:44

Thank you, Bracha.

Reply
bracha
13/11/2018 22:54:37

Really don't know why this friction between the two of you, because I really believe that the way the world has been the last hundred years or so, most Jews (except for those who are and have kept up the traditions and laws of our Torah) have been influenced, as Elisheva points out, by the Western xtian world, directly/indirectly, so they can all be considered as tinokot shenisbu, to a degree. H', I think, is not measuring today's Jews with the strictness as our ancestors were. The way teshuvah will most likely be measured will be according to one's knowledge, ability and capacity of each individual Jew. There is one major point and that there will be NO sitting on the fence and the Jew (no matter how ignorant in Judaism) will have to choose on what side of the fence he/she is. Will it be on the side of H' and have the fear of Heaven with love of our people, our Torarh, and our Land of Israel, or, c'v, siding with the enemies of our people (leftism) and all the rest that is against our Torah. Jews have an obligation at this period in history (now, the end of history) to awaken and be alert to all that is happening and go back to their roots, Because of the influence of the western culture on world Jewry, as never before, most can, in a way, be considered tinokot shenisbu.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
14/11/2018 00:07:06

Hi, Bracha.

I definitely agree with you that Hashem is not measuring today's Jews with the strictness He once was, and it's also true that more Jews than ever before can be considered tinok sheh nishbu due to all the influences mentioned by you and Elisheva.

Also, I agree very much everything you wrote about how at some point all Jews will need to choose one side or other a the fence. And hopefully, they'll all chose correctly without nisayon or bizayon.

However, based on my observations and the opinions of other rabbanim, I just don't see that all non-frum Jews in America fall under the category of tinok sheh nishbu. Some do, maybe even most, but I don't think all do.

For example, if you take Exhibit #3 above, it goes like this:
--She voluntarily attended a weekly Mishna class for 4 years. (i.e. her parents didn't make her; she wanted to do this).

--She attended a very good class given by a Chabad rabbi for 4 years. (And this wasn't in the post, but now I'm thinking it's important to add that it was a class in which you could ask him anything and the students did so. We had discussions on EVERYTHING. And it was great.)

--The above 2 classes included proofs of Hashem's Existence and the Torah's Validity. (Probably should've included that in the original post too. Sorry.)

--She has spent Shabbos at 3 times with frum people in different surroundings and countries and enjoyed that experience.

--She has read stuff I've sent appropriate for her (like stuff from Aish, etc.)

--She has had access to frum people (like me) who are willing to engage with her and explain to her anything and discuss anything with her and have indeed done so on her terms.

Yet despite all the information and experiences she has received over many years, and despite how positively she experienced it all, she still chose to intermarry and at the age of 46, does not observe one drop of Torah.

Based on that, I'm inclined to think she does not fall into the category of tinok sheh nishba, but I'm not 100% sure she doesn't.

There are rabbis who will say she does and rabbis who say she doesn't.

Thank you.

Reply
Neshama link
14/11/2018 08:53:54

What people are forgetting is that this world is midda kneged midda, and the Halacha is the decisor in Judaism whether we know/believe it or not. It has been stated many times, that in our days there is such a proliferation of Torah and Judaism that someone who thinks/knows/speculates about their origins must seek the Emes. And the Emes belongs to authentic Orthodox Judaism and the Sages. Unfortunately, also nowadays, there is such confusion in the air with many influenced by the ‘everyone is equal’ and ‘just be a good Jew in the heart’ that many are not educated correctly to understand that Jewish life has a purpose and there is a strict Heshbon HaNefesh after leaving this world. We are ALL subject to this. FWI a Jew that does not keep Shabbos is considered like a goy, because Shabbos is our oasis in this world and is based on the Torah and Halacha. A Jew must keep Shabbos correctly, not halfway or partially, not driving on Shabbos, not cooking and not turning on/off lights. Of course, there are more halachos, but one that does not keep Shabbos misses entirely the spiritual elevation of the day.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
14/11/2018 14:46:08

Thank you for this, Neshama.

Reply
Neshama
14/11/2018 18:38:20

Please listen to Rabbi Mizrachi that I have posted on my blog: "Judaism Is In Real Danger”. He explains much about those who are fooling the people.

Myrtle Rising
14/11/2018 20:31:34

Hi, Neshama.

Thanks for suggesting this class. I'm in the middle of listening to it now and I really appreciate how he speaks with so much conviction and so much compassion.

Thanks so much for this.


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