"Instead of stinging nettle, myrtle will rise" (Isaiah 55:13)
 "Instead of evil, good will rise." (The Malbim's Interpretation)
Myrtle Rising
  • Blog
  • Contact
  • Comments Policy
  • Aliyah
    • Mini-Intro
    • General Cultural Insights
    • School Tips
  • Kli Yakar Index
  • Privacy Policy

Part I: When "Honesty" Stops being a Virtue

4/10/2018

2 Comments

 
For Part II
The American Seventies brought a new wave of openness.

Everyone was supposed to be open about their feelings, their issues, and their negative experiences.

The new culture insisted on validation and support for a "victim."

(This is despite the fact that "confession" - to the group or to a designated member - is one of the classic signs of a cult. For example, cults expect members to reveal fears, secrets, sins, bad attitudes, bad middot, etc. so the cult can play on these...just like secular society does today.)

Increasingly, tell-all books, both memoirs and thinly disguised autobiographical "fiction" decimated parents, ex-spouses, and friends -- and hit the best-seller lists.

You had "right" to express your feelings and talk about your experiences, even if it meant condemning other people who couldn't be there defend themselves.

Case-in-point: Many of these best-sellers were later contradicted by the people featured within (like Christina Crawford's Mommie Dearest) or by researchers (like those who researched Flora Rheta Schreiber's Sybil). Even if Christina Crawford's siblings are just in denial and covering up Joan Crawford's abusive parenting, the point is that a strenuous case can be made for seeing different angles of the same story OR that the author is the dysfunctional person and engaging in widespread character assassination.

And this extended to the personal level. Especially as a young adult, your parents impact your life so much that it’s hard to talk about yourself without referencing your upbringing and your relationship with them.

As you move into other life-stages, your spouse and his family impact your life in a way that’s all-encompassing. Then your children. And your children feel like an extension of you (which is even truer for women because her biological child was physically part of her body at one point), so maybe you talk about them as freely as you talk about yourself.
​
In secular society, talking freely about your family members, your spouse and his or her family members, and your children is a given.

In fact, you may be criticized for keeping mum about your problems with them, being labeled as “repressed” or “secretive” or “fearful” or “fake.”

​Well-meaning people discourage you from “keeping it all in” and encourage you to “be open, be honest.” Abused (or those who feel they’ve been abused) people enthuse about how much better they feel about telling everything because holding back felt like “protecting” their abuser.

But then again, have you ever encountered situations in which the self-proclaimed victim was actually a manipulator? Or somewhat deluded and self-absorbed? Or simply a bit too subjective?
 
Note: If there is actual clear-cut abuse and the abuser is a danger to society, of course there is value—and sometimes a Torah obligation—to expose this information to protect others from abuse & bring the abuser to justice.

​Again, many people openly discuss the flaws of their family members. They feel it’s their “right.”

​And society is constantly telling them it’s not only okay, but it’s even “healthy” for them to do so.
 
Judaism, however, is very different. 

What about Painful Situations?

The laws of lashon hara are complex and all-encompassing. And while they allow for lashon hara l'toelet (negative speech for a beneficial purpose) and sometimes even obligate one to speak lashon hara l'toelet, the halacha demands that even such lashon hara l'toelet occur within specific boundaries.

So even when the lashon hara is for a beneficial purpose, it still doesn't allow for a free-for-all.

If you grew up secular with the "right" to express yourself however you feel, the laws of lashon hara demand quite an adjustment.

To their eternal credit, a great many Orthodox Jewish women have taken upon themselves to learn 1 or 2 halachot a day to keep on top of lashon hara and prevent verbal mishaps.

Yet a lot of the surrounding culture still seeps in.
 
When I think of how much I know about a friend’s parents, spouse, parents-in-law, or children—EVEN when I don’t know the friend so well—it gives pause for thought.

After many instances of this over the years and learning the laws of lashon hara, I started to realize that it's not good to know much of what I’ve been told. It’s not my business and there’s no toelet (practical benefit) to to it.

Several times, it also happened that I thought that I was the designated "one or two confidants" permitted (with certain strictures) by halacha, only to discover later that I was merely yet another in a long line of confidants, which included the speaker's friends, therapists, siblings or other family members, telephone hotlines, rebbetzins, contacts -- or some combination thereof.

Note: The one speaking about her problems was never manipulative as far as I could tell. She didn't intend to gather a long chain of confidants -- it just happened. How? In a very painful situation, people get desperate and jump from promoted solution to promoted solution. Also, continuous pain is bound to leak out at times.

Having said that, it's notable that all this outpouring and seeking never brought the speaker any relief (except very temporary relief). On the contrary, sometimes the response of a chosen confidant piled even more frustration into the equation. It certainly never produced a solution to the problematic relationship, so the pattern of seeking out new confidants continued, often for years.

​So while understandable, it's rarely helpful and even damaging -- though it FEELS like the right thing to do. It feels "cleansing" and "honest" and "real." But unless performed according to halacha, it usually doesn't help and even harms. This idea will be discussed further in Part II.

 
On the other hand, here's a positive example...

Children are People Too

​As a young mother, one of the aspects of the FFB community that hit me in the face was how other young mothers seemed very uncomfortable if I complained too much about a child (especially a child around 5 or older) or mentioned more than very neutral normal things for that age.

While previous experience in the secular world already impressed upon me the importance of NOT kvetching about older children, especially when they were around (including NOT indulging in the oh-so acceptable joking manner that "allows" parents to publically malign & humiliate their preteen or teenager), I was surprised that these yeshivish women rejected lashon hara regarding a much younger child too.

​Initially, I felt the discomfort and defensiveness that comes when indulging in a behavior I thought was okay, but suddenly got a hint that it really wasn't.

But after mulling it over, I realized they were absolutely right.

Children have a right to grow up without being stigmatized by their parents for their innate character flaws (which we all have) or more disturbingly, being stigmatized because the parents’ character flaws prevent them from seeing their child accurately.

Openness is Not a Jewish Value

Recently, an acquaintance mentioned that her 10-year-old son is on Ritalin.

She said it proudly and gratefully (“It works! It doesn’t always work with everyone.”) Little did she know that despite having put one of my own children on the lowest dose of Ritalin for several months after a couple of years of struggling to learn to read, I don’t think it’s a good idea. I wish I’d invested in davening & cheshbon hanefesh rather than medicating the problem, and certainly as a long-term solution, research shows it’s very problematic.

But I didn’t say anything except, “Mm. I understand.” (Because I do understand—I just don’t agree. But I’m definitely sympathetic.)

Since she is a very sincere, knowledgeable, and especially refined frum lady, it was surprising that she blabbed like this. However, both secular and frum media encourage openness about mental health issues and psychotropic medication in the mistaken belief that such openness is a fantastic boon to dealing with mental health issues -- and even part of the main solution.

And this is the openness encouraged by secular society, along with the attitude encouraged by secular psychiatry which has unfortunately been promoted by English-speaking frum media for years now: "Down with stigma!"

The question is whether a mother has a right to reveal that information to others? Especially since the mother above intends it as a long-term solution, if I see that child at 15, I’m going to assume he’s still on Ritalin (or some variation thereof). And does the 10-year-old mind that his mother (who is an otherwise sincerely frum and dedicated person) just blabs that out to anyone? (A lot of 10-year-olds on Ritalin do NOT want anyone to know!)

Another mother of a sixteen-year-old mentioned that she had her son on Ritalin to keep him in yeshivah. Yet my son, who was friends with him, said that the sixteen-year-old doesn’t want ANYONE to know, it’s a big secret, and I need to make sure I never let out a peep about it, including never indicating to the boy in any way that I know.

​Is that okay?
 
While we needn’t pretend our lives or our family members are perfect, halacha still demands circumspection regarding what we say about them.

The Basic Halacha of Lashon Hara

There are 3 people involved in lashon hara:
  • The speaker
  • The listener
  • The one being spoken about

And the basic halacha of lashon hara is this:

If I, the speaker, think negatively of what I’m saying about someone, it’s forbidden. (It’s forbidden even if the listener feels positively about it and the subject of the speech doesn’t mind.)

Example: Let’s say I think vegetarians are ridiculous. The listener thinks vegetarianism is fine. The vegetarian of whom I’m speaking is fine with everyone knowing he’s a vegetarian. But because I mean it in a derogatory way, it’s lashon hara.

If you, the listener, think negatively of what I’m saying about someone, it’s forbidden. (It’s forbidden even if the speaker feels positively about it and the subject of the speech doesn’t mind.)

Example: Let’s say I think vegetarians are admirable. The listener thinks vegetarianism is for dummies. The vegetarian of whom I’m speaking is fine with everyone knowing he’s a vegetarian. But because the listener hears it in a derogatory way, it’s lashon hara.

If the person being spoken about doesn’t want other people to know OR doesn’t want people to talk about that facet of them, it’s forbidden. (It’s forbidden even if both the speaker and the listener feel positively about it.)

Example: Let’s say both I and the listener think vegetarians are admirable. But the vegetarian of whom I’m speaking prefers to keep his vegetarianism a secret; he feels private about it and doesn’t want it known or spoken of. So even though you and I speak of him in a positive way, it’s still lashon hara.

As you can see, it can get a bit complicated.

While reading through the above, you may already be conjuring up situations that lead you to say, “But what about this? And what about that?”

That’s when you need to ask a lashon hara expert.

Also, the above shows how easy it is to stumble into lashon hara, particularly if both you and the listener feel positively about the subject, even though the subject doesn’t want it known or talked about OR if both you and the subject feel positively and you didn’t realize that the listener feels negatively.

This is why many people advise against talking about other people at all. It’s so easy for even a well-meaning & careful speaker to stumble in this area.

So making a daily study of the laws of speech really helped me in this area. It made me a lot more aware and helped me, even though it’s hard to be perfect about this. But I got better and that’s always good.

Then I read the Pele Yoetz talking about problems with close family members and believe me, it was quite a knock upside the head coming from secular society.

Part II 

May this post be considered a kaparah for my own falls into lashon hara and may we all be protected from any sins of the tongue.
2 Comments
lisa
4/10/2018 14:21:20

Thank you for this posting.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
4/10/2018 15:57:34

Baruch Hashem. Thank you, Lisa.

Reply

Your comment will be posted after it is approved.


Leave a Reply.

    Help a frum family get their children back!:
    http://www.myrtlerising.com/blog/please-help-frum-family-under-attack-from-esav

    Picture
    Please note this is an affiliate link. Meaning, I get a small cut but at NO extra cost to you. If you use it, I'm grateful. If not, you still get a giant mitzvah connected to Eretz Yisrael.

    Enter your email address:

    Delivered by FeedBurner


    Myrtle Rising

    I'm a middle-aged housewife and mother in Eretz Yisrael who likes to read and write a lot.


    Picture
    Sample Chapters

    Categories

    All
    Aliyah
    Anti Jewish Bigotry
    Astronomy
    Book Review
    Books
    Chagim/Holidays
    Chinuch
    Coronavirus
    Dictionaries
    Emuna
    Eretz Yisrael
    Erev Rav
    Gender
    Hitbodedut
    "If The Torah..."
    Jewish Astrology
    Kav Hayashar
    Kli Yakar
    Lashon Hara
    Love
    Minchat Yehudah
    Mishlei/Proverbs
    Netivot Shalom
    Parenting
    Parsha
    Pele Yoetz
    Perek Shira
    Pesach
    Politics
    Prayer
    Purim
    Rav Avigdor Miller
    Rav Itamar Schwartz
    Rav L.Y. Bender
    Recipes
    "Regular" Jews
    Rosh Hashanah
    Society
    Sukkot
    Tammuz
    Technology
    Tehillim/Psalms
    Teshuvah
    The Lost Princess
    Tisha B'Av
    USA Scary Direction
    Women
    Yom Kippur

    Jewish Blogs

    Daf Yomi Review
    Derech Emet
    Going...Habayitah
    Halacha Q&A
    Hava haAharona
    Lazer Beams

    Miriam Adahan
    My Perspective

    Shirat Devorah
    Shuvu Banim
    Spiritual Coaching
    Tomer Devorah
    Toras Avigdor
    True Tzaddikim
    Tznius Blog

    Yeranen Yaakov
    Rabbi Ofer Erez (English)
    Rabbi Ofer Erez (Hebrew lectures)

    Jewish Current Events

    Hamodia
    Lemon Lime Moon
    Shuvu Banim
    Sultan Knish
    Tomer Devorah
    Yeranen Yaakov

    Jewish Health

    People Smarts
    Heliotrope Holistic Health Services

    Archives

    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    April 2017
    March 2017
    February 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    October 2016
    September 2016
    August 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    May 2016
    April 2016
    March 2016
    February 2016
    January 2016
    December 2015
    November 2015
    October 2015
    September 2015
    August 2015
    July 2015

    RSS Feed

    Copyright Notice

    ©2015-2021 Myrtle Rising
    Excerpts and links may be used without express permission as long as a link is provided back to the appropriate Myrtle Rising page.

Home/Blog

Contact

Comment Policy

Aliyah

Kli Yakar in English

Copyright © 2020
Photos used under Creative Commons from Brett Jordan, BAMCorp, Terrazzo, Abode of Chaos, Michele Dorsey Walfred, marklordphotography, M.Burak Erbaş, torbakhopper, jhritz, Rina Pitucci (Tilling 67), Svadilfari, kum111, Tim simpson1, FindYourSearch, Giorgio Galeotti, ChrisYunker, Jaykhuang, YourCastlesDecor, bluebirdsandteapots, Natalia Medd, Stefans02, ElleFlorio, Israel_photo_gallery, Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet, BradPerkins, zeevveez, dfarrell07, h.koppdelaney, Edgardo W. Olivera, nafrenkel88, zeevveez, mtchlra, Liz | populational, TraumaAndDissociation, thinboyfatter, garofalo.christina, skpy, Free Grunge Textures - www.freestock.ca, Nerru, Gregory "Slobirdr" Smith, trendingtopics, dolbinator1000, DonkeyHotey, zeevveez, erix!, zeevveez, h.koppdelaney, MAURO CATEB, kevin dooley, keepitsurreal, annikaleigh, bjornmeansbear, publicdomainphotography, Leonard J Matthews, Exile on Ontario St, Nicholas_T, marcoverch, planman, PhilWolff, j_lai, t.kunikuni, zeevveez, Ian W Scott, Brett Jordan, RonAlmog, Bob Linsdell, NASA Goddard Photo and Video, aaron_anderer, ** RCB **, Tony Webster, mypubliclands, r0sita, AntonStetner, Zachi Evenor, MrJamesBaker, sammydavisdog, Frode Ramone, Wonder woman0731, wrachele, kennethkonica, Skall_Edit, Pleuntje, Rennett Stowe, *S A N D E E P*, symphony of love, AlexanderJonesi, Arya Ziai, ePublicist, Enokson, Tony Webster, Art4TheGlryOfGod, seaternity, Andrew Tarvin, zeevveez, Israel_photo_gallery, Iqbal Osman1, Matt From London, Tribes of the World, Eric Kilby, miracle design, RonAlmog, slgckgc, Kim Scarborough, DonkeyHotey, Mike Licht, NotionsCapital.com, h.koppdelaney, gleonhard, Pedro Travassos, nociveglia, RonAlmog, Israel_photo_gallery, Septemia, Paulann_Egelhoff, Tatiana12, MAD Hippies Life, Neta Bartal, milesgehm, shooting brooklyn, RonAlmog, smilygrl, gospelportals, leighblackall, symensphotographie, zeevveez, Kyknoord, wotashot (taking a break), Tambako the Jaguar, bitmask, Arnie Sacknooson, mattymatt, Rob Swystun, zeevveez, Dun.can, Tim Patterson, timeflicks, garlandcannon, HRYMX, fred_v, Yair Aronshtam, random exposure, zeevveez, Ron Cogswell, FindYourSearch, Israel_photo_gallery, Serendipity Diamonds, zeevveez, Steve Corey, Dominic's pics, leighklotz, Stefans02, dannyman, RonAlmog, Stephen O, RonAlmog, Tips For Travellers, Futurilla, anomalous4, Bob Linsdell, AndyMcLemore, symphony of love, miketnorton, andydr, BLM Nevada, sara~, Gamma Man, Mike Licht, NotionsCapital.com, robef, European Southern Observatory, Brett Jordan, Johnny Silvercloud, Israel_photo_gallery, smkybear, --Sam--, Paulann_Egelhoff, Selena Sheridan, D'oh Boy, campbelj45ca, 19melissa68, entirelysubjective, Leimenide, dheera.net, Brett Jordan, HonestReporting.com, Iqbal Osman1, One Way Stock, Jake Waage, picto:graphic, Marcelo Alves, KAZVorpal, Sparkle Motion, Brett Jordan, Ambernectar 13, Howdy, I'm H. Michael Karshis, Steven DuBois, Cristian V., tortuga767, Jake Cvnningham, D'oh Boy, Eric Kilby, quinn.anya, Lenny K Photography, One Way Stock, Bird Eye, ell brown, Mike Licht, NotionsCapital.com, Kevin M. Gill, lunar caustic, gerrybuckel, quinn.anya, Kaz Andrew, kodomut, kayugee, jintae kim's photography, Futurilla, terri_bateman, Patty Mooney, Amydeanne, Paulann_Egelhoff, Mulling it Over, Ungry Young Man, Ruth and Dave, yangouyang374, symphony of love, kennethkonica, young@art, Brett Jordan, slgckgc, Celestine Chua, rkimpeljr, Kristoffer Trolle, TooFarNorth, D'oh Boy, Grace to You, LittleStuff.me, Dikshant Shahi, Kevin M. Gill, philozopher, traveltipy.com, Alan Cleaver, crazyoctopus, d_vdm, tonynetone, penjelly, TheToch, JohnE777, hello-julie, DaveBleasdale, Michael Candelori Photography, andessurvivor, slgckgc, byzantiumbooks, sasha diamanti