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The Nations Established by the Sons of Noach: Where are They Now?

18/10/2020

10 Comments

 
UPDATE: I discovered mistakes in my understanding of the text of Shalshelet HaKabbalah.

Working from the online copy of an old text with old-time printing (see HERE), plus the random punctuation (periods in the middle of a sentence, or run-on sentences unmarked by neither periods nor commas), plus very similar spellings of different locations (-ציליציאה לידיאה-ליביאה, ציציליאה), plus unfamiliarity with these locations (partly because the geography changed since the 16th Century & partly because Spanish names are often used)—I admit I got mixed up.

For example, one part on page 220 reads (picture this in Hebrew that's not the clearest typesetting):
Chavilah are the nations of Yitula that's in Arabia Savtca. are the nations. of Astbray in Libya Savtca Raama Shva Dadon Nimrod Ludim Anamim Lahavim Naftuchim Patrusim Kasluchim from whom came Plishtim Kaftorim Tzidon all these are scattered throughout the towns and regions of that are in the kingdoms of Lydia Chet is the island of Piombino...
Clearly, it should be punctuated (and formatted) like this:
​Chavilah are the nations of Yitula that's in Arabia.

Savtca are the nations of Astbray in Libya.

Savtca, Raama, Shva, Dadon, Nimrod, Ludim, Anamim, Lahavim, Naftuchim, Patrusim, Kasluchim (from whom came Plishtim), Kaftorim, Tzidon—all these are scattered throughout the towns and regions of that are in the kingdoms of Lydia.

​Chet is the island of Piombino...
​Aside from the fact I've no idea what or where are Yitula or Astbray (or if those are even the correct pronunciations)...

Heck, you can find typos in my writing too, and I don't even have the excuse of using an old-fashioned printing press without spellcheck. So no condemnation of the printing here, just explaining why it was hard to work out the words.

So, for example, most of bnei Cham actually settled in Lydia (Turkey), and not Libya as previously stated. Apologies.

Thank you very much to the readers in both posts who left comments, which spurred on the double-check & the addition of maps.

Corrections (and MAPS!) lie below...

The Descendants of Noach

In Parshat Noach, we encounter the descendants of Noach, who went on to establish nations, some still in identifiable existence today.

With the help of Rav Gedalia ibn Yachya's Shalshelet HaKabbalah (Chain of Tradition), first published in Venice in 1586, we understand more about the location of those descendants today.

(Note: Though I tried very hard to decipher the names of the regions, I still didn't manage to understand all of them. So I only listed those of whom I was pretty sure.)

The first list originates in Sefer Yechusin, but quoted in Shalshelet HaKabbalah.

Lineage according to Sefer Yechusin as quoted in Shalshelet HaKabbalah

Bnei Yafet (Japheth)

First of all, he writes that bnei Yafet took the area of Lusitania, which today is where part of Portugal & Western Spain lie.

Gomer & Magog are a part of Medea called Shirvan. (Shirvan lies in today's northeastern Iran.)

Yavan is Greece.

Tuval is Spain.

Meshech is the Kingdom of Persia. (In the 1586, this included Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Tajikstan, and parts of Iraq, Pakistan, and even China.)

Tiras stretches from Venice until Hungary.

Rifat is England & possibly Troynes in France: "Inglaterra and Troyne (טרוייני)".

Gomer is Ashkenaz (Germany) and its capital is Bohemia. (Bohemia was a kingdom that encompasses at least the Czech Republic today & lay under Habsburg rule in Rav Gedalia's time.)

Torgemah is Turkey.

Tarshish is a region called Cilicia in southeastern Turkey. (But some say Tarshish is Sicily.)

Dodanim is Rhodes.

Bnei Cham (Ham)

Kush is the "kingdom of the blacks."

Sava & Shva (Sheba) are the kingdom of Greece. (Yeah, that surprised me too. I was sure they'd be labeled as somewhere in Africa.)

Put is Libya & Nineveh (Iraq), close to Ashur (Syria).

Patros & Caphtor extend from Gaza until Egypt.

Girgashi is Gurjistan (Georgia in Russia today).

Lineage according to the Author of Shalshelet HaKabbalah

​Here, Rav Gedalia of Shalshelet HaKabbalah says where he thinks these nations are in his time:

Bnei Shem

Elam is in the Kingdom of Persia.


Ashur is Syria "and Arpachshad is near it."

Aram is Damascus.

Lud is possibly Lydia, in Turkey.


Utz is near the land of Canaan.

Chol is Armenia.

Gether is Carmania (Kermen in Iran).

Mash is "Meyuni" (מיאוני) (not sure where that is & not sure why I initially assumed it was Greece).

All the descendants of Yaktan (from Shelach) settled in the countries in the East.

Midyan & Afar are "the children of Avraham Avinu in the kingdom of Africa."
​
Bnei Yafet (Japehth)

Gomer is Galatia (Anapoli in Turkey).

Magog is a place called "Shetia," possibly in Iraq.

Medai is Medea (Iran).

Yavan is Grazia (an island near Italy).

Tuval is Spain.

Meshech is Cappadocia (in Turkey) "near Armenia."

Tiras is possibly Thrace, an ancient region that today includes parts of Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey.

Ashkenaz is Tartary (which is weird because that includes Mongolia, so maybe I misunderstood where Tartarzia is.)


The descendants of Rifat ended up in Venice after first settling in a place called "Dypia" (דיפיאה).

Torgemah is Prague.

Bnei Cham (Ham)

Kush is Ethiopia.

Mitzrayim is Egypt.

Put is Libya.

Canaan is "Palestiana, near Eretz Yisrael."

Sava is Arabia.

Chavilah ended up being a group of nations in Arabia.

Savtca is a group within Libya.

In general, he says, the descendants of Kush are scattered throughout the towns and regions of the Kingdom of Lydia (which is western Turkey today) in his time.

Here is the specific sons of Kush who settled Lydia:
  • Savtca (who also ended up in Libya, not just Lydia)
  • Raama
  • Shva
  • Dadon
  • Nimrod
  • Ludim
  • Anamim 
  • Lahavim
  • Naftuchim
  • Patrusim
  • Kasluchim ("from whom came Plishtim")
  • Kaftorim
  • Tzidon

Chet is the island Piombino in Northern Italy.

Chivi is near Lebanon.

Sini is Tripoli.

Chiti & Emori are close to Yerushalayim.

​Yevusi is Yerushalayim.

Emori, Girgashi, Chivi, Sini, Arvadi, Arki, Tzamari, and Chamat were scattered throughout Eretz Yisrael, and "uprooted from the world by Bnei Yisrael."

Maps of Old Turkey, Modern Turkey, Europe, and the Sardis Synagogue

Here are some maps to help us better understand the locations.

Here is a map of 15th-century Turkey, not long before the publishing of Shalshelet HaKabbalah.

​You can see Thrace in the upper left, Capadocia in the upper right, plus Lydia (under ASIA MINOR) and Cilicia (down at the bottom, not far above Syria), among a lot of other places:
Picture
CC BY-SA 2.5, Link

Here's another map, with Lydia marked in red and Cilicia over on the far right.
Picture
By Mossmaps - This file was derived from:  Western part of the Achaemenid Empire.jpg, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=75086798

Here's the ancient Sardis synagogue in Lydia:
Picture
By Carole Raddato from FRANKFURT, Germany - Sardis Synagogue, late 3rd century AD, Sardis, Lydia, Turkey, CC BY-SA 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=45906673

Here you can see the Habsburg domains from the year 1700, including nations mentioned in the post, like Hungary, Bohemia (in yellow bordering Poland), Sicily, and more.
Picture
By Habsbourg-1700.png: Katepanomegasderivative work: Alphathon - This file was derived from:  Habsbourg-1700.png:, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=25542094

Europe (including Turkey) today:
Picture
By Grossgliederung_Europas.svg: NordNordWestderivative work: Dch (talk) - Grossgliederung_Europas.svg, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=8914026

Here is a map of Safavid Persia from the 15th Century (not long before the time of Shalshelet HaKabbalah).

Here, you see Armenia, Shirvan (on the coast of the Caspian Sea), and Kerman below in the mustard color.
Picture
CC BY-SA 2.5, Link

Here's an old map that shows you a wide swathe of the areas mentioned in this post: Lydia (Lydie), Cilicia (Cilicie), Medea (Medes), (sorry it's all in French, couldn't find it in English, but I think it's close enough to English that it's still comprehensible):
Picture
By Empire_neo_babyloien.svg: *Middle_East_topographic_map-blank.svg: Sémhur (talk)derivative work: Zunkir (talk)derivative work: Zunkir (talk) - Empire_neo_babyloien.svg, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=12098149

Here's a modern map of the whole region mentioned in the post:
Picture

Ancestral Opinions of Other Sources

​Then he quotes others who say the following: 

​Rifat is the Aeolian Islands (near Italy).

​There's a tradition that the inhabitants of Ashkenaz are the Canaanites who fled before Yehoshua.

Also, Josephus says that Tarshish is Tuscany (central Italy), but others say that Tarshish is Tunis, while still others say it's Carthage (a coastal region within present-day Tunisia) in Africa.

The Targum Yerushalmit states that the "daughter of Edom residing in the land of Utz is Armenia."

Some say Yafet is France & Britain.

Some say Tuval is Pisa.

​Some say Tiras is Russia.

A commentary on Daniel states that Cutim is Rome, the kingdoms of Greece & Rome as one.


Elisha is Borgonia (Borgoñá), which is today in Gerona, Spain.

Apparently, Rebbi Shmuel says that Gomer & Magog are Africa, Zarmenia, Medea, Mokdonia, Aisania, and Tunia.

We know what Africa is.

Medea is a region which is today northern & western Iran.

Mokdonia is Macedonia, a region in modern Greece.

Aisania is presumably Asia.

And as for Tunia? Today, there is a region in Pakistan called Tunia Baqa Shah, but I don't know if that's it, but it makes sense seeing as Pakistan is in southeast Asia and borders on Iran, south of Medea, which lies in the same region as the others listed here.


But I couldn't figure out "Zarmenia."

Final Comments

Some are missing because I simply didn't know what some of the areas were. For example, he says that some say that Tiras is "Unglakira" and Russia.

What is Unglakira? Probably one of the countries bordering Russia at that time, but I couldn't figure out which one.

Also, it's interesting to note above the general location of Tarshish, which is where Yonah Hanavi intended to sail.

It was apparently either somewhere in Italy or in Tunisia, which isn't so far from Italy—just on the other side of the Mediterranean Sea.

When he names the location of Ashkenaz, he calls it "Alemania"—which is the Spanish name for Germany. 

The Gemara also states the location of Ashkenaz as "Germamia."

It's interesting also to note that Germany consists of the descendants of Ashkenaz (via Gomer from Yafet) and also the Canaanites.

Seeing as Chazal identifies Amalek in their time as "Germamia" (Germany), it's interesting to think that the people in the German region comprise a mix of Amalek and Canaanites.

Canaan was a very icky, immoral, human-sacrificing nation in ancient times.

And though the Americas had been discovered in his time, Shalshelet HaKabbalah doesn't mention the American continent in his list. Or perhaps he did, and I simply didn't understand the term he used.

​Europeans only discovered Australia and the rest of Oceania after his time, so these are not mentioned either.

Anyway, this sums up the Shalshelet HaKabbalah's tracing of the descendants of Noach.

For the commentary of the Me'am Lo'ez on who these descendants became please see:
  • The Me'am Lo'ez on the Descendants of the Sons of Noach

10 Comments
Bob
18/10/2020 17:49:45

It would be fascinating to know where the peoples/tribes and civilizations of East/South/Southeast Asia as well as the Americas fit into the above.

Seem to recall years above reading an opinion claiming the location of Magog is in the region of Balochistan along with Hormozgan and Kerman (e.g. Iranian Kermania / Germania).

http://israel2022.blogspot.com/2014/07/gog-and-magog-locating-magog.html

Reply
Myrtle Rising
18/10/2020 19:11:16

I agree!

According to the above, at least some of Southeast Asia is Gomer & Magog.

Possibly, it's East Asia he meant when he wrote that the descendants of Yaktan via Shelach (i.e., Shelach, Yaktan, Ever, Peleg, Chatzermavet, etc., until Yovav) ended up in the East. His literal words were the "countries on the eastern side"—"b'medinot sheh b'tzad hamizrach."

So I think that's who he means.

However, I would also like to know about ancestry of the nations who first inhabited the Americas, plus Oceania too.

It's all very interesting.

Reply
Bob
19/10/2020 00:17:15

Seconded

There is also the descendants of Avraham via Keturah who were sent eastwards to consider that apparently played a large role in Hodu civilization.

One issue with designating Ethiopia as part of Cham would be the fact groups like the Amhara, Tigrayans, etc both linguistically and genetically appear to be part of Shem.

Yet also understand the Canaanites including the Phoenicians and Tunis / Carthage based Punics were also designated as Cham despite sharing a similar linguistic and genetic connection to Shem. It is also curious as well that the PLO Arabs were based in Tunis at one point.

https://www.etzion.org.il/en/parashat-ki-tisa-nations-canaan-and-girgashites

The Austronesian-speaking peoples are other interesting subject.

Myrtle Rising
19/10/2020 11:33:03

Analyzing the above, we see there was already a lot of mixing going on, with the offspring of Shem, Cham, and Yafet settling in the same general area.

Like how Europe was apparently settled mostly by bnei Yafet, yet part of Canaan (Cham) apparently settled in Germany and Chet (Cham) settled in Italy.

We also see that bnei Shem & bnei Cham dispersed themselves throughout Eretz Yisrael.

And yes, the offspring of Avraham Avinu & Keturah went East, yet the above says that some of them (Midyan & his son Efer) ended up in Africa, which could explain the Shem-Cham intermixing you mention in some of the tribes there.

And thank you for the link. Well-researched & well-written, it made for very good reading.

Thanks for your comment, Bob.

londonmale
27/10/2020 02:00:16

This is a fascinating subject and one I think we will not know the full answers to until Mashiach teaches us.
Reb Dov Ber Lieb has written about how Rifat is France.
I have also read about how linguistic historians place Ashkenaz in North East Turkey, with the roots of Yiddish in that region also.
France, Germany and Turkey appear to be brothers.
Magog has been identified by some as Eastern Asia - roughly Siberia and Mongolia.
Meshech too the Eastern part of Russia to the East of the Urals.
Ethiopia has people of both Semitic and Chamitic descent.
So we can see how there are different opinions.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
27/10/2020 10:54:05

It's definitely a fascinating subject.

And I agree that we can't really know until Mashiach comes. (In the meantime, many of us are apparently having fun analyzing it on our own.)

Thanks very much for your additional information.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
27/10/2020 13:31:08

After the comments here & on the previous post, I took another look in Shalshelet HaKabbalah and I see that I misunderstood a few locations.

Most of Bnei Cham ended up in Lydia (Turkey), not Libya.

They're spelled almost the same in Hebrew, except for the dalet and bet, and also the book uses random punctuation, such as a period in the middle of a sentence and no period or comma to divide 2 different sentences.

In other words, the following are scattered among the towns & regions of Lydia (Turkey):
Savtca (who also ended up in Libya, not just Lydia)
Raama
Shva
Dadon
Nimrod
Ludim
Anamim
Lahavim
Naftuchim
Patrusim
Kasluchim ("from whom came Plishtim")
Kaftorim
Tzidon

Also, Sefer Yechusin defines Rifat as "Inglaterra and Troyne (טרוייני)"—and there's a place called Troynes near Paris, I believe.

But Rav Gedalia says that Rifat is "the nation of Dipyia (דיפיאה), whose sons ultimately came to Venice."

Also, while some say that Tarshish is Sicily, others say it's the region of Cilicia in modern-day Turkey. (Again, got those mixed up because of the similar spelling while reading old-print Hebrew—sorry!)

I'm working on making these corrections now in the original post.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
27/10/2020 15:22:39

Major changes & corrections, plus the addition of maps, have been completed. Hope this helps!

Reply
londonmale
1/11/2020 04:56:06

Yes Rifat can be said to have migrated to the UK and Ireland also.

I quote Reb Dov from his "End of Days" blog written 01 February 2017:

"We read from Bereishit 10 that Yafeth's son Gomer had three children: Ashkenaz, Rifat, and Togarmah. It is an accepted mesorah that Ashkenaz is Germany, and many think that Togarmah is Turkey. But what about Rifat? Rifat is the progenitor of ancient France which at its inception was a Celtic nation, only later to become a Romance nation after Caesar's invasion of Gaul. The name for Rifat in Sefer Ovadia is Tzarfat which is Rifat with a Tzadee added to the front of his name. To understand why he may have added that tzadee, an explanation will follow later in this post, but before there was Tzarfat (צרפת), there was Rifat (רִיפַת) without the initial tzadee. Now these Celts from Tzarfat migrated up into England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, but they got their start in the heart of France."

Reply
Myrtle Rising
1/11/2020 10:03:23

Wow, Londonmale, thank you so much for providing all this information, and also where it can be found on the End of Days blog.

It's really fascinating.

Reply

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