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What Do the Sephardi Gedolim Say about Tziyonut, the Medinah, and All That?

21/8/2019

15 Comments

 
​Only recently did I realize that while I was very familiar with (and supportive of) the Ashkenazi Gedolim’s attitude toward political Zionism, I wasn’t so knowledgeable of the opinions of the Sephardi Gedolim.
 
This is very understandable in light of the fact that the English-speaking charedi world is heavily weighted on the Ashkenazi side of things, so we end up hearing more about people like Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, Rav Miller, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, as well as the various Chassidic Rebbes, especially those prominent in the English-speaking world.

And this is good because they are true talmidei chachamim.

Furthermore, my Moroccan-Israeli husband’s entry into charedi Yiddishkeit was via Litvish yeshivahs.
 
While my husband goes according to Sephardi talmidei chachamim for halacha, he respects all true talmidei chachamim equally with regard to hashkafah (as is the correct attitude). And despite certain differences among groups, the real talmidei chachamim have more in common than not.
 
So when I asked my husband about Sephardi Gedolim and Zionism, he summed it up that Sephardi Gedolim place less emphasis on the "anti-Tziyoni," but other than that, don’t differ much in hashkafah from Ashkenazi Gedolim.

Also, many Sephardi Gedolim opine as Rav Shteinman that if a boy is anyway out on the street committing all kinds of transgressions and generally wasting his life, then Nachal Charedi is a better option for him. (Several other Ashkenazi Gedolim oppose even this.)

​I think that sums it up on one foot, anyway.

Finally, it's important to know that the term itself (Tziyonut) is not remotely based on Torah or mitzvot (other than the name of the geographical location: "Tzion").

Tziyonut was only coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum, who was a secular ethnocentrist at that time. (He did complete teshuvah later, baruch Hashem.) He promoted Jewish nationalism based on the Yiddish language and culture (however he defined that).

So Tziyonut was a secular ethnocentric (Ashkenazi-only Yiddish-only) idea from the get-go. (To be fair, Sephardim only comprised around 10% of world Jewry at that time, but they still numbered over a million spread throughout North Africa, the Middle East, the Balkans, Western Europe, including thousands in North & South America. Quite a lot to ignore, actually.)

​Baruch Hashem, Birnbaum also dropped his ethnocentrism later too. Sincere teshuvah cleanses all sins.

 
(Quite an interesting fellow. Please see HERE for more about him.)

Ashkenazi Gedolim & Sephardi Gedolim Face Very Different Audiences

​Furthermore, as my very yeshivish son pointed out, Sephardi Gedolim are talking to an extremely varied group, and they need to pasken according to needs of different Jews.
 
For example, charedi Sephardim listen to Sephardi Gedolim. Yet secular-traditional Sephardim also listen to Sephardi Gedolim. And then you have all the Sephardim in between those 2 extremes.
 
Yet who listens to, say, Rav Kanievsky outside of charedim (both Sephardi & Ashkenazi) and the very committed chardalim (charedi-dati-leumi)?
 
My son pointed out that when Rav Ovadia Yosef ztz”l spoke about army service, he needed to speak to both the Sephardi charedi bnei Torah AND “amcha” (the non-yeshivish Sephardim) at the same time.

I believe Sephardi Gedolim face a similar challenge if they decide to talk about tziyonut negatively to constituents who self-identify as tziyoni. (Many if not most Israelis — or Jews worldwide, for that matter — do not realize the origin of the term or the idea.) 
 
Ashkenazi Gedolim could and do also speak to Jews at different stages of observance, but they do so on the individual level because there is no real need (or demand) to do so on the general level.
 
(For example, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach opposed heter mechirah for Shemittah, but if a person came to him who was insistent on heter mechirah, the rav would tell him how to observe heter mechirah according to halacha.)
 
Also, it’s always hard to discuss this kind of thing in a public forum because black-and-white thinkers tend to see the above as charedi compromise/capitulation/loophole or hypocrisy, with a smirky attitude of “Oho—gotchya Gadol Hador!”
 
But really, it’s more a matter of assisting a person “ba’asher hu sham” (Beresheit 21:17 with Rashi) and that’s not compromising on Torah values at all.

But it's very difficult to explain this to black-and-white thinkers.

So I hope there are no black-and-white thinkers reading this.

​(Or if they are, I fervently hope they do not comment because I find the circular arguments & misleading blanket statements very stressful to deal with.)
 
But back to Sephardi talmidei chachamim and Zionism…

An Enlightening Q&A with Hidabroot

​Here is a Q&A  from Hidabroot (my translation):
Q:
Shalom Kavod Harav,

I’d like to know if the Shas Party is for or against the Religious-Zionist stream.

​Regards,
Avi

 A:
Shalom u’vracha.
 
We are not spokesmen for Shas.
 
Maran {Rav Ovadia Yosef}, may his merit guard over us, was supportive of anyone who walked completely in the way of Hashem without any compromises and he fought against anyone who tried to compromise on an issue.
 
Regards,
Binyamin Shmueli

​Here’s another on Hashkafah & Yirat Shamayim:
Q:
Shalom.

​In Heaven, is there significance regarding a person’s hashkafah? Regarding army/State/Zionism, etc…or is the important thing that a person is God-fearing and upholds the Shulchan Aruch…
 
A:
The Supreme importance is the observance of all the mitzvot of the Torah, as explained in the Shulchan Aruch, without any fishy leniencies.
 
Anyone who wants to think that the State of Israel is the beginning of the Geula is welcome to do so.

​However, he must be careful not to be drawn after leniencies of Torah or any change in the priorities of Torah versus nationalism, and likewise, will continue to be wary of joining with those who can remove him or his children from the Torah.
 
Likewise, to – God forbid – go after the spirit of the distorters that there is holiness to the army and that the virtue of military service is greater than the virtue of Torah scholars, God forbid.

Furthermore, it’s forbidden to consider Herzl a prophet or anything else. Herzl was a heretic and nothing more. Anyone who considers Herzl a prophet or visionary despite his Sabbath desecration and the rest of his severe transgressions – such a person is a disbeliever in the Torah and disparages all the Nevi’im.
 
Therefore, the obligation to submit to the Gedolei Yisrael is an absolute obligation and cannot change regardless of any form of hashkafah.
 
I hope I have succeeded in summarizing in these few lines everything necessary to know on one foot.
 
Regards,
Binyamin Shmueli

That’s pretty unequivocal.
 
And this next one is a particularly fun read.

​For those who like to compare and contrast, here is a Sephardi rabbi discussing Satmar & Neturei Karta hashkafahs – you sure don’t see that every day!

(Please scroll down to #5 in the original Hebrew.)

UPDATE: A reader knowledgeable in Satmar hashkafah wrote to clarify points mentioned in the answer given by Rabbi Nachum. Please see R' Yisroel Tzion Kash's comments below for elucidation of the authentic Satmar hashkafah.

​A Few Questions on Satmar & Zionism:
Q:
Shalom Kavod Harav…
​
5. Is it better to live in a country led by secular-Tziyoni evildoers than to live outside of Eretz Yisrael? What is the view of Satmar chassidim? How are they different from Neturei Karta? And what is so bad about their actions? Thank you.
 
A:
5. It’s preferable to live in Eretz Yisrael because of kedushat ha’Aretz {the holiness of the Land}. The Gemara (Yevamot 82b) says about this that the Land maintains its holiness even in the days of Galut {Exile}.
 
The opinion of the Admor of Satmar of blessed memory, the author of the book The Three Oaths – which is according to the Gemara Ketubot 111 – is that it’s forbidden for Jews to ascend from the Galut as a “wall” (Rashi explains: “together by force”) [that is to say, to take by force Eretz Yisrael from the grip of the nations of the world].
 
The Neturei Karta part ways from the shitah of the Admor of Satmar of blessed memory as stated above, and their opinion today is that even though the secular Israelis already took the Land by force from the grip of the nations of the world and not as according to the Gemara mentioned above, the proper path is to turn the present reality back to what it was before.

This is different than the shitah of the rest of the charedim – including Satmar chassidim today – who are of the opinion that after the new reality has already occurred, one should operate according to Torah observance within the current reality.
 
The mistake of Neturei Karta in practicality is that they think that they are rescuing Jewish lives when they show the Arabs that it is only the secular Tziyonim who took the Land from them, and that is not the opinion of the religious Jews – therefore, they aren’t supposed to fight against or harm Jewish charedim.

​The mistake is that the belief of the Arabs goes against this aspect of the belief of Judaism, and therefore it is not just a matter of taking the Land that will appease the Arabs permanently.
​{Sorry, that last sentence was a bit convoluted. The rabbi means that due to the diametric contrast in religious belief, Muslims cannot be more than temporarily appeased by taking Land from the Jews. In other words, their religious belief system demands more than just taking Land. —MR}
May it be His Will that the Blessed Hashem will help every single Jew to come out of this Galut speedily in our days, Amen.
 
Rabbi Nachum


The Value of Sephardi Insight

​I just want to add that I really value the knowledgeable Sephardi views on Arabs and Islam.

​You still have many Sephardim who understand Arabic and are familiar with Muslim-Arabic culture in a way similar to those of us who grew up among Western non-Jewish culture.
 
These Sephardim pick up on nuances that others don’t and actually understand what Arabic-speakers mean when they say stuff.
 
And while they can be sympathetic toward Arabs and easily see them as individuals (just like we Americans relate toward our non-Jewish friends & neighbors), they are at the same time very aware of cultural values and behaviors.

What Do Ben Shapiro, Rav Avigdor Miller, and Neturei Karta Have in Common?

And with regard to Rabbi Nachum's summary of Neturei Karta’s views (which sound extreme under the Neturei Karta label, but are actually shared by many thinking frum Jews):

I’m seeing a similar dynamic among American Jews — those frum Jews who wish to disassociate themselves from the increasingly immoral views of liberal/Leftist Jews and the degenerate high mucky-mucks who are Jew in name only.


Disassociation is important both for the sake of truth and to avoid the undeserved fallout that occurs when decent frum Jews are lumped together with anti-Torah Jews.

Even the modern Orthodox Ben Shapiro disassociates himself from the widespread Jewish vote for Obama with: ​
“Most Jews aren’t Jewish in any real sense beyond ethnic identification.”

​(Source)
​Or this: 
​“…the Jews who vote for Obama are, by and large, Jews In Name Only (JINOs). They eat bagels and lox; they watch "Schindler's List"; they visit temple on Yom Kippur – sometimes. But they do not care about Israel. Or if they do, they care about it less than abortion, [same-gender] marriage and global warming.”

​(Source)

Here’s something similar by Rav Avigdor Miller:
​Rav Avigdor Miller on Neturei Karta & Dirty Laundry.
 
In other words:
​“They don’t represent us. They don’t represent the authentic Jewish position.”
 
It’s also impossible to miss the implied plea not to hate or judge or condemn us (or authentic Torah Judaism) or attack us because of the “JINO” majority — ​an approach which shares some similarity with the Neturei Karta approach.
 
Also, please don’t think I’m equating Ben Shapiro with talmidei chachamim and real daas Torah. My point is that there is a logical response that any committed frum Jew could instinctively have. It’s self-protective, not extremist.
 
(And isn't it really bizarre to find a similarity in approach between Ben Shapiro & Neturei Karta & Rav Avigdor Miller? I had no idea I'd reach this conclusion when I started writing this post.)
 
Anyway, getting back to Sephardi chachamim & Tziyonut…

A Sampling of Sephardi Chachamim & Their Opinions

Here are 2 articles written by differently hashkafahed Jews:

Here’s a dati-leumi rabbi summing it up:
https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sephardic-rabbinical-approaches-zionism
 
And here is a Sephardi frum fellow summing it up:
https://bariveshema.blogspot.com/2006/05/sephardic-rabbis-and-zionism_04.html
 
This is the first time I’ve come across Bari VeShema and I’m not sure what his exact hashkafah is, but I prefer his summary of Sephardi Gedolim because it’s better-sourced. 
 
Also, I found it difficult to research Sephardi Gadolim & Zionism because in the English-speaking Sephardi world, I think many prefer to think their Gedolim are dati-leumi, so I found the English-speaking Sephardi presentation slanted toward their own preference, which I'm not sure is completely accurate.

That's my impression. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Sincerely, I mean that.

So looking at Bari V’Shema, I was surprised to discover that Chacham Alfandari did not think that Agudas Yisrael was anti-Tziyoni enough.

​Also, the Ben Ish Chai comes off as very strong in his stance.
 
Then there is this quote by the Baba Sali from Etzion’s Rabbi Jachter above:
“Ki Ata be-eish hitzata, u-va-eish Ata atid livnota” – with fire Yerushalayim was destroyed and with fire it will be rebuilt. He explained that just as Jerusalem was destroyed by the fire of avoda zara, it will sadly be rebuilt by avoda zara.

Very powerful.
 
I read this in another place and I wish I knew the source for this for sure. I love this quote and it makes sense that the Baba Sali said this, but I'm uncomfortable without solid sources for quotes.
 
Also, regarding the discussion that follows in the comments section of Bari V'Shema's post: I personally do not equate Zionism with the mitzvah of yishuv ha’Aretz, although many frum Jews do. (But many also do not.)
 
At the risk of this turning into a useless discussion of semantics, I think that equating Zionism with yishuv ha'Aretz confuses things — especially since the entire origin of the term & idea is secular & ethnocentric.
 
(This confusion can be seen, for example, in describing Doña Gracia Nasi as being one of the early “Zionists” because she strove to provide Jewish settlement in Tiveria, which some people do. Neither the term nor the idea even existed in the 1500s. There is a mitzvah of yishuv ha’Aretz. That’s all.)

Likewise, in the Etzion article, I’m not sure if the Sephardi chachamim were pro-Zionism per se or whether they were pro-yishuv ha’Aretz and in favor of winning battles against Jew-hating enemies.

​What were the exact terms they used? I don't know. It doesn't say.

For example, Rav Ovadia Yosef was in favor of praying for Israeli soldiers. Doing so is not specifically Tziyoni. Why is davening for a fellow Jew to succeed against Jew-haters "tziyoni"?
 
To compare: Rav Avigdor Miller encouraged support of the IDF & Tziyonim against Jew-hating terror. He clearly says you SHOULD pray for Israeli soldiers. He was against these insane & suicidal “Land for peace” policies:

Rav Miller on Praying for the IDF (January 2001)

Rav Miller on Land for Peace (October 2000)
 
Yet he was clearly not “pro-Zionist.”

Rav Miller on the Sinking Boat of the Zionist State (November 1975)
 
In other words, Rav Miller loved all Jews and wanted what was truly best for us.
 
Secular Leftist anti-Torah tyrannies are not good for us.

Again, because of a tendency to equate fighting terror or settling the Land with “Zionism,” it’s not clear to me that these chachamim were “pro-Zionism.” Did they even use that specific term? Again, I do not know.
 
I personally do not & will not call myself a Zionist anymore than I would call myself a “Sabbathist” for keeping Shabbat or an “environmentalist” for observing the Torah prohibitions of bal tashchit and not uprooting fruit trees.
 
I don't refer to myself as a "monotheist" for believing in One God. Anyone can be a monotheist.

I'm a Torah-observant Jew.

I am not a Zionist. I’m a Torah observant Jew who, in addition to fulfilling other commandments in the Torah, also fulfills the commandment of yishuv ha’Aretz — to settle in Eretz Yisrael.
 
That’s it.
 
Anyway, I think this sums up everything I’ve learned so far about Sephardi Gedolim and Tziyonut. 

Oh, Wait...One More Sephardi Opinion

Please see this tefillah of a huge Sephardi tzaddik for settling in Eretz Yisrael. This was in 1824 when Eretz Yisrael was under the occupation of Turkish Ottoman Empire.

A Prayer to Make Aliyah & Live in Eretz Yisrael

(The Pele Yoetz preceded Herzl & Tziyonut by decades, by the way, as did religious aliyah & settlement within Eretz Yisrael.)

The Pele Yoetz refers to aliyah as "likboa dirato ba'Eretz Yisrael — to set his residence in the Land of Israel" or "halichat Eretz Yisrael — ​going to Eretz Yisrael."

That's what I and millions of other Jews have done:

​We went to Eretz Yisrael & we set our residence in Eretz Yisrael.

(Please see the Pele Yoetz's chapter on Eretz Yisrael in Ivrit or Eretz Yisrael in English.)

No Zionism, no political labels, no ethnic or cultural focus...just mitzvah.

​A particularly heartwarming & fulfilling mitzvah.
Picture
Lake Kinneret (The Sea of Galilee)
15 Comments
Mr. Cohen link
21/8/2019 18:56:32

If the Israel Army (IDF) were to suddenly vanish, then there would be ANOTHER HOLOCAUST within three days; the Arabs and Muslims would mercilessly kill, murder, and slaughter every Jewish man, woman, senior citizen, teenager, child, infant and baby, in the entire land of Israel, and every Torah scroll would be desecrated and destroyed, and every synagogue would be destroyed or made into a mosque.

History has repeatedly shown that the 99.99% of the Gentiles would DO NOTHING to stop the Arab murderers or to help the Jewish victims.

Please remember that, the next time you hear Rabbis who attack or disparage the Israel Army (IDF).

===================================

Harvard Law Professor Alan M. Dershowitz said:

“...if Israel’s military power were ever to be diminished
to the point that the combined armies of the Arab world
could defeat it, I believe there would be ANOTHER HOLOCAUST.

No Arab dictator who could defeat Israel and forebore
from doing so would survive the continuing frenzy for
jihad [Islamic holy war against non-Muslims].

And an Arab military victory over Israel – unlike
the Israeli victories over the Arabs – would not
result in a mere occupation or even detention of Israeli Jews.

It would result in a mass slaughter,
designed to rid Arab holy land of Jewish intruders.

Most Jews know this, though they rarely speak of it openly.”

SOURCE: Chutzpah by Alan M. Dershowitz
(chapter epilogue, page 352), year 1991, Little Brown & Co
ISBN: 9780316181372 * ISBN: 0316181374

===================================

Professor Abraham H. Miller said:

“AIPAC and other pro-Israel organizations exist,
in part, to ensure that Israel maintains a
competitive military and technological
edge so that the Arabs don’t overrun it
and commit the SECOND HOLOCAUST
they repeatedly promise...”

SOURCE: Progressive calls for Jews to support
Rep. Ilhan Omar by Abraham H. Miller 2019 February 20
www.jns.org/opinion/progressive-calls-for-jews-to-support-rep-ilhan-omar/

===================================
Mr. Patrick Condell said:

“The Arabs only have to win ONCE for the world to see ANOTHER HOLOCAUST, and to stand by once again watching it happen.

That is why I support Israel, and that's why, if you have an ounce of humanity, you, too, should support Israel, whatever your political persuasion.”

SOURCE: Why I Support Israel
a YouTube video by Pat Condell, 2014 June 18

Reply
Myrtle Rising
21/8/2019 21:10:18

Hi, Mr. Cohen,

I can appreciate where you're coming from.

On the other hand, I'm more guided by religious values than political ones as far as Eretz Yisrael goes.

Therefore, much of American political thinking no longer sits with me.

Just feel it's only fair to state my "bias" up front before addressing your points.

1) I don't hold by Dershowitz as he is a liberal Democrat from the previous generation, much like nearly all the Conservative (which is actually liberal) Jewish (and fake "convert") adults with whom I grew up. Like them, he is sometimes incidentally correct, but only out of a sense of personal self-preservation - including the self-preservation of liberal values.

2) Also, "support Israel" is too abstract for me. I was here during Rabin's lethal policies, which I strongly opposed. I also strongly opposed the exit from Gush Katif, which has had devastating consequences on the country.

What should Israel-supporters support under such a regime?

3) We have widely divergent views & policies in the Knesset. Which ones are considered supporting Israel?

4) The IDF soldiers, especially the religious ones, are often sincere with high integrity, while the elite running things are not.

For example, I care deeply about the well-being of my brothers in uniform while the elites do not, which results in death, terrible injury, and hostage-taking of both live and murdered soldiers. Families cannot receive closure due to lack of leviyah and kevurah.

5) Some people support Israel by supporting lethal or anti-Torah policies, others support Israel by supporting halachically sound policies.

6) Finally, I don't think that AIPAC represents me, based on some of what I've read about them. I'm not sure that they support Israel in the way I think Israel should be supported (i.e., by authentically Jewish values ONLY).

So it all comes back to...what does "support Israel" mean exactly? By whose definition?

Thank you.

Reply
Myrtle Rising
21/8/2019 21:31:26

P.S. All of Israel's wars have been won with open miracles, as far as I've researched.

This includes the launching of an unbelievable number of missiles into Israel, which has resulted in a statistically improbably small amount of casualties (although every single Jew is a terrible loss).

If the entire Arab world decided to gang up on us (or even "just" half of the Arab world), chas v'shalom, we do not have the power to win derech hateva. I don't think we've ever had the power to win derech hateva (yet we did). We simply lack the sheer numbers and bulk to win derech hateva.

And yes, if the Arabs would do so, chas v'shalom, the world would stand by and watch (with the exception of a few sympathizers).

Who exactly is preventing the Arab world from doing so?

Our continued existence is the ongoing Chessed of Hashem, Yitbarach Shemo.

Reply
Mr. Cohen link
21/8/2019 18:58:36

Why Pray for Tzahal-IDF:
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/2016/04/guest-post-why-pray-for-idf.html

How to Pray for Tzahal-IDF:
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/2016/09/how-to-pray-for-tzahal-idf.html

Reply
Myrtle Rising
21/8/2019 21:16:11

Wasn't praying for Tzahal mentioned positively within the post? Rav Ovadia Yosef said to do it. Rav Avigdor Miller said to do it. Many others have said to do it.

Of course we pray for the well-being of fellow Jews.

I guess I'm confused. Are you showing agreement or disagreement with that aspect of the post?

Reply
Mr. Cohen link
21/8/2019 18:59:57

Lord Ian Livingston of England said:

“Whilst the Israeli Defense Forces are not
perfect, the obsession of focusing on them
despite being the most moral and professional
army in the Middle East is very strange.”

SOURCE: Ten Baroness Tonge Pilloried
at House of Lords Session She Initiated
on Israel’s Treatment of Palestinian Children
by Benjamin Kerstein, 2019 July 8
www.algemeiner.com/2019/07/08/itiated-on-israels-treatment-of-palestinian-children/

Reply
Myrtle Rising
21/8/2019 21:19:38

I would say that, regarding the actual IDF soldiers (and not the elite running things), they are the most moral army in the WORLD, not just the Middle East.

No other army responds with such integrity given the same situation.

Reply
Mr. Cohen link
21/8/2019 19:04:10

Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch® said:

The Qur’an depicts the Jews as inveterately evil and bent on destroying the well-being of the Muslims.

They are the strongest of all people in enmity toward the Muslims (5:82); they fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah (2:79; 3:75, 3:181); they claim that Allah’s power is limited (5:64); they love to listen to lies (5:41); they disobey Allah and never observe his commands (5:13). They are disputing and quarreling (2:247); hiding the truth and misleading people (3:78); staging rebellion against the prophets and rejecting their guidance (2:55); being hypocritical (2:14, 2:44); giving preference to their own interests over the teachings of Muhammad (2:87); wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them (2:109); feeling pain when others are happy or fortunate (3:120); being arrogant about their being Allah’s beloved people (5:18); devouring people’s wealth by subterfuge (4:161); slandering the true religion and being cursed by Allah (4:46); killing the prophets (2:61); being merciless and heartless (2:74); never keeping their promises or fulfilling their words (2:100); being unrestrained in committing sins (5:79); being cowardly (59:13-14); being miserly (4:53); being transformed into apes and pigs for breaking the Sabbath (2:63-65; 5:59-60; 7:166); and more.

They are under Allah’s curse (9:30), and Muslims should wage war against them and subjugate them under Islamic hegemony (9:29).

SOURCE: Sharia Professor: “If you are a Muslim who believes in the Quran, you must believe that the Jews are your enemies”
by Robert Spencer, 2019 August 4
www.JihadWatch.org/2019/08/sharia-professor-if-you-are-a-muslim-who-believes-in-the-quran-you-must-believe-that-the-jews-are-your-enemies

Reply
Myrtle Rising
21/8/2019 21:39:47

Isn't this what Rabbi Nachum implies in his answer above?

I'm confused again. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Reply
Yisroel
21/8/2019 20:04:23

Rabbi Nachum’s explanation of the Satmar position is a little vague, and therefore allows the reader to to reach potentially invalid conclusions of the Satmar position due to the individuals particular hashkafic lense.
The Satmar Rav’s issue with any medinah, not just this particular incarnation, prior to the Moshiach, is that it simply violates Halacha to either seize the land by force and set up a government, which is what happened, or even go up in mass, peacefully, to an uninhabited Eretz Yisrael, which didn’t happen. To be clear, both of these descriptions are a violation of Halacha according to the Satmar Rav and almost all Chareidi Poskim outside of the Kookian camp over the past 100 years or so. They were/are not just opposed to a secular state, they would be opposed to a religious one as well. One completely governed in accordance with Halacha would even be worse than a secular state. This point is often missed by religious Zionist. The Eida Chareidis position is that the state is treif. It cannot be kasherd by dressing it up in religious garb, while it’s very existence is in open rebellion against HaShem.
The current difference in the Satmar position and other Chareidi positions revolve around how to approach the defacto Jewish nationalist state that currently controls Eretz Yisrael.
Satmars position (also Brisker and all of Badatz) is to refrain from participating in anything that would potentially prolong the state (voting, military service, etc...). Zionism is Jewish avodah zarah (Satmar Rav, Brisker Rav, Charon Ish) and a Yid is not allowed to benefit from it.
Hope this helps clarify the basic opposition to the state from Eida Chareidis, Brisk, Satmar etc...
Yisroel Tzion

Reply
Myrtle Rising
21/8/2019 20:43:28

Thanks very much for all this, Yisroel Tzion.

I appreciate a level-headed clarification of the issues by someone-in-the-know. It's very helpful.

And I think people should be exposed to this point of view in a calm, objective manner (as you did), whether they agree with it or not (because it is always portrayed in a negative and emotional manner outside of its own media, which prevents level-headed examination of the issues).

I just have 2 questions for further clarification, if that's okay?

1) How can it be that a peaceful mass aliyah to uninhabited Eretz Yisrael was halachically forbidden by charedi Gedolim when disciples of the Vilna Gaon & the Chassidish Rebbes chose to do just that, with the blessings of their leaders? This includes the Pele Yoetz, who actively encouraged aliyah (with the exception of certain situations).

Not to mention the numerous other tzaddikim who either made aliyah or were born in Eretz Yisrael over the centuries...

Am I misunderstanding something?

2) Why is a halachically governed State considered worse than the current State? (I'm genuinely curious as I haven't heard that before.)

I hope this is okay and look forward to further clarification.

Thank you very much.

Reply
Yisroel Tzion Kash
21/8/2019 22:25:47

Myrtle Rising, I would answer your two questions as follows:

1.MASS ALIYAH is what is forbidden per Halacha. Individuals and small groups, per your examples of various Tzaddikim over the previous centuries and the Holy Baal Shem's students and the GRA's students actions were permissible according to every Halachic opinion I have seen (with the exception of Rav Yehudah the Amora, Ketubos 110b, no one paskins this way). an individual choosing to reside in Eretz Yisrael during galus is considered an optional Mitzvah, like Tzit Tzit, and is permissible according to every opinion I have seen.

Regarding your second question, for a secular Jew, whether they are a complete apikoris or just ignorant of Halacha (tinok shenishba), to participate in what the chochamim term as an "open rebellion against HaShem and his Moshiach" at its worst and at a "minimum", for lack of a better term, a basic violation of Halacha, is one thing. For frum yidden to do so is an entirely different matter. "HaShem does not take council of the wicked" when determining a majority. The secular don't "count" so to speak. HaShem only judges the klal by the actions of the "righteous". When the frum behave like the secular, then you have a true majority, and HaShem will judge our actions based on that bad behavior. As I stated in my previous comment, the state's very existence is an open rebellion against Hashem. For the Chochamim and the Tzaddikim to participate in and sanction such a thing would be much worse than a secular Yid doing so. Sanhedrin 99a " One who says the entire Torah originated from heaven except for this (one particular mitzvah) has despised the word of Hashem" This would be an example of a "frum" goverment before Moshiach.

I have provided a few quotes from the Tzadikim below that may add clarity.

Rabbi Chaim of Brisk: "The Jewish people have suffered many plagues – the Sadducees, Karaites, Hellenisers, Shabbesai Zvi, Haskalah, Reform and many others. But the strongest of them all is Zionism, because its heresy focuses on the center of Judaism.” (Mishkenos Haro’im p. 269)

The Chazon Ish said: Who keeps mitzvohs in our time and is still considered a non believer? Anyone who claims that it is the fault of the rabbis that 6 million Jews were murdered in Europe, and anyone who celebrates Independence Day (Reb Aharon Roter)

At the time of the establishment of the state, anti-Zionist activists asked the Brisker Rov, “When we speak to Jews about the state, should we stress the fact that the leaders of the state are wicked people whose whole purpose is to uproot Torah and cast Jews in a new mold, empty of any spark of Judaism? Or should we stress the serious prohibition of establishing any Jewish state at all before the coming of moshiach and the Sanhedrin in the hewn chamber?” He replied that they should stress the prohibition of establishing any Jewish state, lest anyone think that if the State were run according to the Torah and Shulchan Aruch it would be permitted to establish it.
Similarly, he once said to Rabbi Amram Blau, “We must stress that the problem with the State is not just the chillul Shabbos and other aveiros that they do. For even if you would be the prime minister, it would be forbidden to establish the State.”

Rabbi Meir Soloveitchik quoted his father, "Even if they appointed the Chofetz Chaim himself as the leader of the state, it would be forbidden." (Uvdos Vehanhagos Leveis Brisk, v. 4 p. 196)

Myrtle Rising
22/8/2019 02:01:54

R' Kash, thank you so much making the effort to articulate all this & include sources. It's much appreciated.

I learned some new things that I think are important to know.

And I do have one more clarification, if that's okay?

Based all the sources quoted in both comments, is it permitted for a majority of Jews to come live in Eretz Yisrael as long as it's done individually or in small groups, and not en masse or by force?

I understand that the Satmar Rav & many others interpreted this statement as forbidding peaceful mass aliyah too, but could many Jews still come as long as they came individually or in small groups?

I'm asking about this because I've seen so many sources that promote living in Eretz Yisrael if at all possible (Rambam, Pele Yoetz, etc.), and I'm just trying to work out how people could fulfill the mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael without violating the prohibition against going up "b'chomah."

I realize this is a mostly theoretical question at this point in history, as the "chomah" has already played out.

(And if you prefer not to get into theoretical scenarios, that's fine too. I'll respect that.)

Thank you very much again for taking the time to clarify Satmar hashkafah.

Yisroel Tzion
22/8/2019 19:48:15

Myrtle Rising,
Good question, even if it is just theoretical at this point in history.
Simply put, the 3 oaths (hallacha) do not prohibit and individual or small group from making aliyah. The only exception I have seen to this general rule, would be if doing so would put the individual in a life threatening situation or cause severe financial hardship. Barring that, individuals are allowed to move to Eretz Yisrael.
So, in theory, if a large number (40%, 50%, 60%, pick your number) of world Jewry at any time decided, independently of each other, to move to Eretz Yisrael, it would not be a violation of the oaths.
Practically speaking this would never happen for 2 reasons:
1. Two thousand years of history shows that independently, large numbers of Yidden would never conceive of the idea to do this on their own and 2. a non Jewish governmental power has been in control of Eretz Yisrael since the destruction, and they would never agree to peacefully take in so many Yidden to their Country/Territory. It would require the use of organized force by the Yidden to achieve this in mass, Which, unfortunately is what happened.
I hope this is a sufficient answer. I enjoy your blog, Keep up the good work and may Moshiach come soon and make this whole discussion a mute point!
Yisroel Tzion

Reply
Myrtle Rising
22/8/2019 20:31:21

Thank you again for taking the time & effort to lay it all out for us.

It's very appreciated.

This definitely answered my question, plus other questions that popped up after I posted the previous comment.

Thanks also for your kind words and AMEN to your last sentence.

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